United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

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Suranis
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United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#1

Post by Suranis » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:18 pm

Just thought this merited its own thread.


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jmj
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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#2

Post by jmj » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:36 pm

I came across this article yesterday that I found rather interesting:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2 ... passengers
Delta overbooks at a higher rate than any other airline. However, it uses an innovative Coasian auction system during check-in to persuade passengers on overbooked flights to give up their seats for cash payouts. As a result, it has by far the lowest rate of forcing people off of flights even when they don't want to go.

By contrast, Southwest—which has been taunting United over the Dr. Dao incident—has an average rate of overbooking, but apparently a pretty crappy system for handling overbooked flights. This gives them highest rate of forced deplanings.

United, ironically, isn't bad on this score. Their overbooking rate is about average, and their "involuntary deplanings" rate is quite low. Depending on how you feel about things, Delta would probably be your first choice on the overbooking front, but United is a solid second.



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#3

Post by Piffle » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:40 pm

It didn't take this latest incident to convince me that United has become a terrible airline. It's the pits.

https://youtu.be/HV28_ENzFog



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Dolly
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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#4

Post by Dolly » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:10 pm

see other videos on this twitter feed:

Jayse D. Anspach
@JayseDavid
Christian. Husband. Seminary Student. CrossFit Trainer.
Louisville, KY
https://twitter.com/JayseDavid/with_replies
https://archive.is/oLYWY
Jayse D. Anspach‏
@JayseDavid

@United overbook #flight3411 and decided to force random passengers off the plane. Here's how they did it:
< i can't post the video >

5:01 PM - 9 Apr 2017
Jayse D. Anspach‏
@JayseDavid
Replying to @peopleteams @united and 2 others

< i can't post the video >

5:05 PM - 9 Apr 2017
Jayse D. Anspach‏
@JayseDavid

@CNN and those tuning in to the @United #flight3411, the Dr. was NOT intoxicated. He was in his right mind prior to hitting his face.

< i can't post the video >

6:10 AM - 11 Apr 2017


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bob
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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#5

Post by bob » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:23 pm

From what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong) but UA 3411 wasn't even "overbooked." United wanted to eject passengers so its employees could fly. If true, this violated United's contract of carriage, as confirmed seat holders have priority over non-confirmed seat holders.


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GlimDropper
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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#6

Post by GlimDropper » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:30 pm

Remember the good old days when the social media outrage at United was over a broken guitar?

https://youtu.be/5YGc4zOqozo



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#7

Post by Lani » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:41 pm

Damn. I have a trip coming up and am required to fly on the cheapest flight. It's United. I've had a lot of problems with United in the past, including on 12 hour trip that took 2.5 days.


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Mikedunford
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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#8

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:09 pm

bob wrote:From what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong) but UA 3411 wasn't even "overbooked." United wanted to eject passengers so its employees could fly. If true, this violated United's contract of carriage, as confirmed seat holders have priority over non-confirmed seat holders.
Not just their contract of carriage:

"In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall ensure that the smallest practicable number of persons holding confirmed reserved space on that flight are denied boarding involuntarily."

14 CFR 250.2a

As I said in a response to someone on Twitter earlier today, I wonder where "use of force to facilitate wrongful breach of contract in violation of CFR" falls on the corporate counsel ohshitometer.


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#9

Post by Dan1100 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:19 pm

Except (absent some definition somewhere that says "oversold" doesn't actually mean "oversold"), the flight wasn't oversold.

As I understand it, there was a seat for every paid passenger sitting on the plane. Then 4 employees showed up after all the seats were assigned and wanted to be on the flight.

I understand that overbooking is part of the business model, but once you actually get a seat assignment, that ought to be your seat and everyone else who wants to be on the flight ought to be on standby.


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#10

Post by bob » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:38 pm

Mikedunford wrote:As I said in a response to someone on Twitter earlier today, I wonder where "use of force to facilitate wrongful breach of contract in violation of CFR" falls on the corporate counsel ohshitometer.
I had similar thoughts regarding the police agency. Reasonable force to effectuate an arrest for trespassing is acceptable.

The bigger issue, however, is whether the police's probable cause for such an arrest went beyond, "the gate agent told me so."


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#11

Post by June bug » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:47 pm

I love how, when Munoz actually apologizes, he never acknowledges his earlier statements supporting the flight crew and demeaning Dr. Dao as disruptive and belligerent. Has a certain "We have always been at war with Eastasia" ring to it, don't you think?

The good news is that I'm pretty sure that qualifies him for a cabinet post in the Trump Administration, so he doesn't have to worry if he loses his United gig.



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Dolly
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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#12

Post by Dolly » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:58 pm

After this incident, there were articles about the Doctor and his past. These two articles deal with that tactic.
United Airlines, David Dao And The Way We Blame
It is simultaneously surprisingly and sadly predictable.

..............another instance, far more serious, is the violent ejection of Dr. David Dao from a United Airlines flight after he declined to give up his seat so that United personnel could take it, and, in particular, what an element of the public response reveals about how people take sides in disputes.
............
Equally predictable and perhaps more instructive is a particular element of the public response, one that seeks to excuse or vindicate United Airlines and is prepared to indict Dao in order to do it. While the broad public response has been condemnatory of United Airlines, the airline has its share of apologists and defenders. The first and broadest line of defense are variations on the theme of “What else was United supposed to do?”, as if calling the police to clean up by physical force what was essentially a corporate scheduling error was the only available option (as opposed to, say, raising the offer of compensation for volunteers to take a later flight, or flying their personnel on a different plane.)
<SNIP>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/uni ... 5a227cb942

Is the United Airlines man being smeared in the media even the right David Dao? It shouldn't matter
Only after United Airlines' share price plummeted by almost $1bn overnight did CEO Oscar Munoz bother to stop victim-blaming. But whatever did or didn't happen in Dao's past, he didn't deserve to have his life ruined for not wanting to get off a plane

“Doctor dragged off United flight was felon who traded prescription drugs for secret gay sex with patient half his age and took them himself – and he needed anger management, was ‘not forthright’ and had control issues, psychiatrist found,” wrote the Daily Mail this week of Dr David Dao, in probably the longest headline ever written. David Dao, of course, is the 69-year-old passenger who was assaulted by a security official while being removed from an oversold flight this week in a brutal video which quickly went internationally viral. <SNIP>
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/uni ... 80221.html

Example: A "friend"s comments on his Facebook post: :madguy:
Sekrit Stuffs!
It's getting worse by the minute. This guy was a real dirt bag-really bad person who didn't belong on the streets. Still shouldn't have been dragged off the plane but at least it happened to a trash head scum bag. His colleagues had nothing good to say about him. One scary dude who peddles narcotics for sex.

Well at least one thing is sure: it's going to be a lot harder for this Dirtbag to get young people hooked on opiates and exploit them for sex being that his picture is all over the Internet. And he'll probably get a refund for his anger management class.

Based on the comments of the people that knew him and had to work with him, he was definitely a troublemaker. His past behavior fit someone who would give attitude when they didn't get their way. He wouldn't abide by the contract he signed. He had a chance to leave peaceably but he didn't. It's scary to think that people like him are on an airplane.

Laurie, I don't think you know all the details. I too was outraged at the manner in which the Chicago police acted. But, according to a friend in the industry, the guy did initially get up and give up his seat and did according to the contract he signed when he purchased the ticket. But then, he acted defiant towards the airline personal, in a very belligerent manner and returned to his seat. Following FAA rules and regs, they (airline personnel) called for law enforcement to remove the irrational drug peddling violent felon. His behavior was irrational before any force was used. Supposed they moved on and let him stay and he later in mid flight had a violent drug fueled episode and decided to open the door at 25,000 ft? And his past most certainly has a reflection on his present behavior. He's doing what an unrepentant drug dealing violent person would naturally do.

why is it that trouble seems to follow troublemakers? Considering all the bad stuff this guys done he probably should've been thrown out of the plane in mid air. The POS is responsible for getting a lot of people hooked on opiates. Good riddance to this violent scumbag



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#13

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:30 pm

Dan1100 wrote:Except (absent some definition somewhere that says "oversold" doesn't actually mean "oversold"), the flight wasn't oversold.

As I understand it, there was a seat for every paid passenger sitting on the plane. Then 4 employees showed up after all the seats were assigned and wanted to be on the flight.

I understand that overbooking is part of the business model, but once you actually get a seat assignment, that ought to be your seat and everyone else who wants to be on the flight ought to be on standby.
Absolutely correct - not an oversold flight. But, even if it was, the selection of those passengers over non-ticketed crew would have violated the oversale rules. They're screwed either way. United's only legal options were to continue to negotiate for seats, or to find alternate transport for the crew. They seriously fucked this one up about eleventy-six distinct ways.


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#14

Post by Notorial Dissent » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:34 pm

Untied(spelling intentional) has never been anything more than a barely adequate carrier in my opinion, and one I only took as a last resort. They have had a mediocre to vile reputation for years, so I can't say this particularly surprises me. I've never yet heard anything complimentary about them from people I've known who regularly fly them.


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#15

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:30 pm

for the sporty air traveller:

The Jiu jitsu Way to escape United Airlines

[liveleak]61589e6e3578[/liveleak]



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#16

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:31 pm

United airlines new "superior Class" commercial

[liveleak]d607745e32a0[/liveleak]



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#17

Post by Kendra » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:35 pm

Recently, I sat next to a man who had bought a business-class ticket from Newark to San Francisco but had rescheduled his flight due to an impending storm. United told him that they had no business-class seats available on our flight so he had to sit in Economy Plus. Once we boarded, United then proceeded to give complimentary upgrades to seated Global Services members (the highest status) instead of going to him first, even though he had paid business class prices for Economy Plus. He was livid.
Unfortunately, this is from a semi-private forum and I would prefer not to provide a link. Take it as you will, but this comes from an old timey Amazon reviewer and commenter.

But...then there's this:

http://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus ... story.html
It’s hard to find examples of worse decision-making and customer treatment than United Airlines having a passenger dragged from an overbooked plane. But United’s shabby treatment of Geoff Fearns, including a threat to place him in handcuffs, comes close.

Fearns, 59, is president of TriPacific Capital Advisors, an Irvine investment firm that handles more than half a billion dollars in real estate holdings on behalf of public pension funds. He had to fly to Hawaii last week for a business conference.

Fearns needed to return early so he paid about $1,000 for a full-fare, first-class ticket to Los Angeles. He boarded the aircraft at Lihue Airport on the island of Kauai, took his seat and enjoyed a complimentary glass of orange juice while awaiting takeoff.

Then, as Fearns tells it, a United employee rushed onto the aircraft and informed him that he had to get off the plane.
Worth a read.



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#18

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:12 pm

bob wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:As I said in a response to someone on Twitter earlier today, I wonder where "use of force to facilitate wrongful breach of contract in violation of CFR" falls on the corporate counsel ohshitometer.
I had similar thoughts regarding the police agency. Reasonable force to effectuate an arrest for trespassing is acceptable.

The bigger issue, however, is whether the police's probable cause for such an arrest went beyond, "the gate agent told me so."
In the interest of clarity, he wasn't removed by a sworn law enforcement officer. He was removed by an Aviation Department security officer according to the spokesperson for that department. "“The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department,” [city Aviation Department spokeswoman Karen] Pride said."
And all 3 officers have now apparently been suspended.



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#19

Post by Reality Check » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:16 pm

I think United got bitten on the ass by something that hasn't been mentioned. It is the use of regional subcontractors to fly under their banner. All the majors except maybe Southwest do it. They use subcontractors like American Eagle, United Express, Mesa, Piedmont, and Republic to fly regional routes under exclusive contracts. These regional carriers can then pay pilots and everyone on down about half of the wages the big carriers pay their own employees. Their pilots accept low pay to get the experience in hopes they can move up to the big boys down the road.

It is a good deal for the carriers and the travelers who might not have any flights at all from the small airports that the big carriers abandoned long ago to concentrate on the major routes. The down side is that you get what you pay for. Training and employees are inferior. Crashes are more frequent with regional carriers. So are mechanical problems. It was inevitable that a customer service disaster like the one last weekend was going to happen.

No one will remember that these were Republic Airlines employees, not United. The flight was under the United banner. Republic well may go away or file for bankruptcy but no one will care.


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#20

Post by RTH10260 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:57 pm

For those interested to view, an hour long press conference

The attorney for Dr. David Dao, the passenger forcibly removed from a United Airlines flight, holds a press conference in Chicago along with Dr. Dao's daughter, Crystal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoEitXznXo



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#21

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:44 pm

Dr. Dao may be able to start his own airline company with the settlement or judgment he gets from Flying The Friendly SkiesSM.



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#22

Post by Orlylicious » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:35 am

If it was a Republic flight can United pass along the liability and weasel out?

NYTimes has a story about Pepsi, United and the rise of social media and how top companies are dealing with it. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/13/busi ... c=rss&_r=0



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#23

Post by GreatGrey » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:52 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:Dr. Dao may be able to start his own airline company with the settlement or judgment he gets from Flying The Friendly SkiesSM.
Would be better if he got United to buy him an unlimited Net-Jets membership as part of the settlement.


I am not "someone upthread".
Trump needs to be smashed into some kind of inedible orange pâté.

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#24

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:16 am

And the interesting new info that has emerged says the 4 crew members didn't even have to fly until the next day.

No link, it was on tv.



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#25

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:17 am

GreatGrey wrote:
Sterngard Friegen wrote:Dr. Dao may be able to start his own airline company with the settlement or judgment he gets from Flying The Friendly SkiesSM.
Would be better if he got United to buy him an unlimited Net-Jets membership as part of the settlement.
For fairness, it should be 4 memberships.



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