grains and brains

User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 11511
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: Eastern West Coast

grains and brains

Postby ZekeB » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:05 pm

According to The History Channel, which is never wrong, ;) surviving members of the party admitted to cannibalism. I suppose the question will never be fully answered.

User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 15718
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm

grains and brains

Postby TollandRCR » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:01 am

This discussion of the "lifestyle" of no sugars, no grains has been fascinating. I have not kept up with it diligently, so apologies if I am repeating a point already made.I wonder about the future of a world in which grains no longer provide the majority of a day's calories for a great majority of the world's peoples. It seems inevitable that the global population will hit at least nine billion people by mid-century, and there is no guarantee that it will stop there. Scenarios based upon the continuation of current fertility rates forecast an upper bound of twelve billion. I don't know how all these people will be fed if grains are not a substantial part of their nourishment. It is worth noting that a substantial fraction of the globe's population already is malnourished or hungry.There is another way of stating this: without the horticultural and agricultural revolutions, humanity could never have reached a population of this size. We might not even be 100 million. Some would find that to be an attractive idea. [link]Estimated and projected global human populations CE 1 - CE 2020 animation,http://desip.igc.org/mapanim.html[/link]

User avatar
Sterngard Friegen
Posts: 31547
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:32 am

grains and brains

Postby Sterngard Friegen » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:17 am

Grains have been genetically modified in the last few decades to give bigger yields and to be resistant to certain insecticides which also lead to bigger yields. Those modifications have had unintended consequences. William Davis, M.D., discusses the problems with wheat in his book Wheat Belly. It is quite controversial, with most of the criticism coming from those in the wheat industry. While it's anecdotal, people who give up wheat seem to be healthier.

User avatar
listeme
Posts: 3938
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:09 am

grains and brains

Postby listeme » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:23 am

This discussion of the "lifestyle" of no sugars, no grains has been fascinating. I have not kept up with it diligently, so apologies if I am repeating a point already made.I wonder about the future of a world in which grains no longer provide the majority of a day's calories for a great majority of the world's peoples. It seems inevitable that the global population will hit at least nine billion people by mid-century, and there is no guarantee that it will stop there. Scenarios based upon the continuation of current fertility rates forecast an upper bound of twelve billion. I don't know how all these people will be fed if grains are not a substantial part of their nourishment. It is worth noting that a substantial fraction of the globe's population already is malnourished or hungry.There is another way of stating this: without the horticultural and agricultural revolutions, humanity could never have reached a population of this size. We might not even be 100 million. Some would find that to be an attractive idea. [link]Estimated and projected global human populations CE 1 - CE 2020 animation,http://desip.igc.org/mapanim.html[/link]

Yes, this is a big concern for me. Meat production is not as efficient a source of food -- planet space wise.My related concern is that, well, let's say the no-grain approach is "best" nutritionally. Right now, who can reasonably eat this way? First-worlders, and not all of them. How would we maximize the reach of this nutritional regimen while not damaging the planet?
Say what you mean.

User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 11511
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: Eastern West Coast

grains and brains

Postby ZekeB » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:45 am

Yes, this is a big concern for me. Meat production is not as efficient a source of food -- planet space wise.My related concern is that, well, let's say the no-grain approach is "best" nutritionally. Right now, who can reasonably eat this way? First-worlders, and not all of them. How would we maximize the reach of this nutritional regimen while not damaging the planet?

Protein does not have to come from meat. Peanuts (aside: not really nuts) and other nuts provide an excellent source of protein. As far as just plain grass is concerned, meat production can utilize grass better than we humans can. My problem with todays meat is how they finish cattle for market. The critter is fed mostly corn which its system was not designed to digest. They feed it antibiotics to get around this unnatural diet. A growth hormone is also implanted in the critter. I don't need "all natural" beef, but I'd much rather have meat without the antibiotics and growth hormones.I don't feel that grains should be completely phased out. Grandma's home cooking, which Vinnie stated few got fat from eating, had lots of baked breads and such in it. I do think we would be a much healthier and trimmer society if we cut our grain/carbohydrate consumption in half.

User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 15718
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm

grains and brains

Postby TollandRCR » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:10 am

Yes, this is a big concern for me. Meat production is not as efficient a source of food -- planet space wise.My related concern is that, well, let's say the no-grain approach is "best" nutritionally. Right now, who can reasonably eat this way? First-worlders, and not all of them. How would we maximize the reach of this nutritional regimen while not damaging the planet?

Protein does not have to come from meat. Peanuts (aside: not really nuts) and other nuts provide an excellent source of protein. As far as just plain grass is concerned, meat production can utilize grass better than we humans can. My problem with todays meat is how they finish cattle for market. The critter is fed mostly corn which its system was not designed to digest. They feed it antibiotics to get around this unnatural diet. A growth hormone is also implanted in the critter. I don't need "all natural" beef, but I'd much rather have meat without the antibiotics and growth hormones.I don't feel that grains should be completely phased out. Grandma's home cooking, which Vinnie stated few got fat from eating, had lots of baked breads and such in it. I do think we would be a much healthier and trimmer society if we cut our grain/carbohydrate consumption in half.

The questions about GMO foods remain unanswered, IMHO. My friends in agriculture assure me that only with GMO foods can a population of nine billion be fed. Although cows can eat grass, they also consume water -- lots of it. In some parts of the U.S., that has become such a big problem that ranchers are selling their breeding stock. If one animal unit (a cow and her calf) require about 2 acres in prime Central Texas grassland, the same land could be producing foods lower on the food chain for a much larger supply of food (not necessarily of the same nutritional quality).I do think the practicalities are that we are talking about a First World diet if we are talking no sugars, no grains. Also, there is still a protein problem. Many vegetable proteins are incomplete; it is hard to make up the difference while living in poverty.

User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 11511
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: Eastern West Coast

grains and brains

Postby ZekeB » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:35 am

Producing plant foods in Texas takes water. Lots of water. Producing corn requires a lot of water, even in Midwest states that get nominal rainfall every year. It would not surprise me if irrigated crops need 10 acre inches per year. I'm too lazy to calculate, but at 7.5 gallons per cubic foot, that will be a LOT of water. Most of this water is evaporated back into the atmosphere, as is the end produst of the water a cow drinks.

User avatar
listeme
Posts: 3938
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:09 am

grains and brains

Postby listeme » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:44 pm

Based on the podcast and on Kimba's description of the radio show last night (which I haven't heard yet), I actually think Vinnie would LOVE my diet/lifestyle. (Besides tourney days, that is.)
Say what you mean.

User avatar
SueDB
Posts: 21778
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:02 pm
Location: FEMA Camp PI Okanogan, WA 98840

grains and brains

Postby SueDB » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:54 pm

Hybridizing is NOT genetically modifying.


Beg to differ here....


Hybridizing is genetic manipulation and modification. Corn for example did not exist in nature until the Native Americans manipulated the genetics through hybridization.


Corn is not a natural product. It is the product of intensive genetic manipulation by man.





[/break1]wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/11/61210]Wired Article on Early Genetic Modification of Corn (Maize)





Hybridization is just genetic modification via "natural means".





Also, there are 3 or so amino acids pretty much only found in meat and meat products along with legumes such as soybeans. And yes, vegetarians should eat a wide variety of plant proteins to replace the missing amino acids.
"Scientific Research: A whole lotta tedious attention to detail followed
by a lovely payoff too esoteric for your friends to understand."
anon--

User avatar
Sterngard Friegen
Posts: 31547
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:32 am

grains and brains

Postby Sterngard Friegen » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:17 pm

Wheat has gone through polyploidy. Is that genetic manipulation? How about Round Up ready wheat?For all but a small percentage of the population modern wheat has become very bad for us.

User avatar
SueDB
Posts: 21778
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:02 pm
Location: FEMA Camp PI Okanogan, WA 98840

grains and brains

Postby SueDB » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:25 pm

Wheat has gone through polyploidy . Is that genetic manipulation? How about Round Up ready wheat?For all but a small percentage of the population modern wheat has become very bad for us.

My sister has issues with gluten. None of the other family members do, but I have Crohn's and the family does have a history of "stomach trouble" and some other autoimmune issues (dad had MS - autoimmune w/nervous system and brain involvement. Milk and wheat don't bother me a whit.It's kinda a strange observation, but Mexican/Tex-Mex food including refried beans (veggie kind) doesn't bother me either. Italian food using tomato bases sauces is another issue. BTW, whole grain noodles sit like a brick almost all the way through yer system... :( :( Brown rice works pretty well though especially along with wild rice (grass). :-$ I have a friend in Mn that gathers the grains along the Snake River somewhere in Mn near MSP :-$ . I'm not going near Estivo's Spice Cabinet though.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
"Scientific Research: A whole lotta tedious attention to detail followed
by a lovely payoff too esoteric for your friends to understand."
anon--

User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 18653
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Third Stone from the Sun
Contact:

grains and brains

Postby Foggy » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:29 pm

I found sugar free bbq sauce at a country nc style bbq joint where i had lunch today. No flour.
Show me, show me, show me how you do that trick! The one that makes me scream, she said.

User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 11511
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: Eastern West Coast

grains and brains

Postby ZekeB » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:08 pm

That's a very old combine, kimba. All new combines have axial flow cylinders. That looks like about an 8 foot header. Todays machines boast 24 foot headers and more. As for Roundup, generally it is sprayed once a year. It is a systemic herbicide and works from the soil. Broadleaf herbicides such as 2,4-D (now banned, I believe) work via contact with the plant. These may or may not have been sprayed in more than one application.I remember good old Atrazine in the mid-60s. It was only used on cane crops because they were naturally resistant to it. I don't think hardly anyone uses it anymore. It's all about Roundup Resistant corn today.[edit]OBTW, that type of header would be used for harvesting wheat or oats. A corn head would be completely different - designed to first pluck the ears from the stalk and then the harvester removes the kernels from the ears.[/edit]

User avatar
SueDB
Posts: 21778
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:02 pm
Location: FEMA Camp PI Okanogan, WA 98840

grains and brains

Postby SueDB » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:00 pm

[/break1]ask.com/touch/web?qsrc=6&q=Combine+Harvester+Cutaway&o=0&l=dir]List of Combine Cut Away Diagram Sites

Combine-Harvester-Cutaway - Other - 3D CAD model - GrabCADFeb 2, 2013 ... Combine-Harvester-Cutaway - Design By MaaS ([/break1]com/library/]http://grabcad.com/library/ messis-sementis-combine-harvester) CAD File Available at ...grabcad.com/library/combine-harvester-cu...Combines | X-series | Multimedia experience | Cutaway view ...... industry, municipalities and environment. Go to Fendt ISU. Forage harvester ... 360° all-round vision. Go to Katana 65 Configurator. Combines ... Cutaway view ...[/break1]fendt.com/int/5514.asp]www.fendt.com/int/5514.aspHow Stuff Works: Corn Combine : Vi...

and more...
"Scientific Research: A whole lotta tedious attention to detail followed
by a lovely payoff too esoteric for your friends to understand."
anon--

User avatar
SueDB
Posts: 21778
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:02 pm
Location: FEMA Camp PI Okanogan, WA 98840

grains and brains

Postby SueDB » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:02 pm

There have been some issues with the Roundup Resistant wheat/crops cross pollinating the local crops. Monsanto keeps trying to sue the neighbors for "stealing" their genes (pollen). Monsanto doesn't seem to be very "nice". [-X [-X [-X :- :-
"Scientific Research: A whole lotta tedious attention to detail followed
by a lovely payoff too esoteric for your friends to understand."
anon--

User avatar
Sugar Magnolia
Posts: 4558
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:44 am

grains and brains

Postby Sugar Magnolia » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:17 pm

It's sort of weird to me every time I see "Roundup" in this thread since I just submitted a piece titled "Roundup" to an art show. It has a crop duster in it so it seemed appropriate.

User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 15718
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm

grains and brains

Postby TollandRCR » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:00 pm

There is another aspect to humanity's dependence on grains for most of our calories. Daniel Quinn, pop philosopher, described it through the lessons taught by "Ishmael." When people started sowing grains, rather than simply gathering them, the sociocultural effects were profound:[*:3ad4l4j1]The ownership of land made economic sense.[*:3ad4l4j1]People could be employed on larger and larger plots of land, where before they simply worked side-by-side. Some people became owners and producers; others became employees.[*:3ad4l4j1]With a surplus of food being produced even in primitive horticulture, it became necessary to find ways to store food -- and to lock up the food. That meant that something had to compensate the producers, the harvesters, and the storage people. Money or barter became necessary.Quinn offers a far too simple explanation for why social class and gender discrimination were introduced, but Ishmael made a good start at it, I think.

User avatar
Sterngard Friegen
Posts: 31547
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:32 am

grains and brains

Postby Sterngard Friegen » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:03 pm

Jared Diamond makes those arguments, too.

User avatar
TollandRCR
Posts: 15718
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm

grains and brains

Postby TollandRCR » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:05 pm

Diamond beat Quinn by about 20 years, but Quinn is more fun to read. There are Ishmael "communities" around the world, but not Diamond communities.


Return to “The Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests