Birther Potpourri

esseff44 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:00 pm

Sequoia32 wrote:

wavey davey wrote:

But even if Hawaii was not a state in 1961, it wouldn't change Obama's citizenship anyway.

Quote:

§ 4. Citizenship.

That all persons who were citizens of the Republic of Hawaii on August twelfth, eighteen hundred and ninety-eight, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States and citizens of the Territory of Hawaii.

http://www.freehawaii.org/organicact.html

This does not affect Obama's status, but it does raise a question that has not been clarified. Those people born in territories that became states do not neatly fit in the categories of natural born citizens since they were not citizens at birth and they were not naturalized. They were declared citizens by an act of Congress and did not have to go through a naturalization process.

BFB · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:05 pm

Lola_Getz wrote:

BFB wrote:

I've always thought Aug. 12 was a most excellent day ...

The grouse would probably disagree with you. :lol:

Well, I feel bad for the grouse, but I will from now on refer to it as "The Glorious Twelfth." :-bd

esseff44 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:20 pm

Just to stir the birther pot a bit, what would happen if we had to go down the line of presidential succession and got to Daniel Inouye? Would he be NBC? He would certainly blow up the arguments about allegiance and loyalties since he is a Medal of Honor winning veteran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Inouye

Third in line of succession after Biden and Boehner as President Pro Tem of the Senate

Bluebook · **Joined:** Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:45 pm **Posts:** 23

Quote:

Esseff wrote: This does not affect Obama's status, but it does raise a question that has not been clarified. Those people born in territories that became states do not neatly fit in the categories of natural born citizens since they were not citizens at birth and they were not naturalized. They were declared citizens by an act of Congress and did not have to go through a naturalization process.

I'll take a crack at this. It has in part to do, I believe, with the principle of "incorporation." If a territory is incorporated, being readied for statehood, such as Arizona and Kansas territories were, then those born in such incorporated territories are asssumed to be U.S. citizens "at birth," need no naturalization, and are thus natural born citizens, as being born on the soil. If a territory or possession is not incorporated (such as the Phillipines had been - see U.S. v. Rabang), then people born there, without more - e.g., an act of Congress, are not U.S. citizens at birth (but may be U.S. "nationals"). If Congress passes a statute and grants U.S. citizenship "at birth" to those in certain territories, regardless of the status of the territory, it is assumed that those people are citizens at birth, need no naturalization (receipt of citizenship status after birth), and thus are natural born citizens.

Whatever4 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:26 pm

Calvin's case. They were natural born citizens of the original country, became natural born citizens of their new country. Much like Washington and Adams were NBCs of their colonies, which became state, therefore they were NBCs of the United States.

Foggy · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:35 pm

NEW THEORY from, of all places, my local forum (registration required so no link, but you have my word this was written by a lametard over there):

Quote:

He moved to Indonesia as a child. That is well-documented. He attended a school in Indonesia that required Indonseian citizenship. That is well-documented.

He was a US citizen, albeit not a natural born citizen, because his father was a British subject at the time of his birth. He immigrated back to the US in the late 70s as an unaccompanied minor and was placed in the custody of his grandmother as a resident alien; but a Catholic organization in CT was his legal guardian. He became a naturalized US citizen when he was about 20. His CT SSN# was a result of his guardianship with the government contractor (located in CT) that took in the unaccompanied minors coming in from overseas.

A good theory fits the facts, and this one is an improvement, if only there were a scintilla of evidence to support it ...

Loren · **Joined:** Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:20 pm **Posts:** 3897

Foggy wrote:

Quote:

He immigrated back to the US in the late 70s as an unaccompanied minor and was placed in the custody of his grandmother as a resident alien; but a Catholic organization in CT was his legal guardian.

A good theory fits the facts,

Except that his presence in the US throughout the 1970s is pretty well established. Unless Manning or someone wants to claim his high school experience was faked like his Columbia years.

esseff44 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:54 pm

Why wouldn't his grandparents be his legal guardians in any case? It makes no sense to have a third party organization to be involved since he lived with his maternal grandparents the whole time except when with his mother in Indonesia.

Foggy · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:04 pm

It wasn't his grandparents. It took me three times of reading it, but apparently the president was only put in the custody of his grandmother, not his grandfather. This raises additional questions...

Foggy · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:16 pm

... and you'll notice the Catholic organization early in the second paragraph becomes a government contractor by the end. I'm not aware of a lot of Catholic organizations that are government contractors, but then I've led a sheltered life.

The thing is, where did he get all these "facts" that none of the other birthers have claimed? Catholic organization in Connecticut is a new one, government contractor or not. Naturalized at age 20 is new, too (and the guy swears the naturalization certificate is held in the State Dept., if only we could gain access; I'm thinkin' this could be a productive new line of attack for, Orly, in the future.

A legal guardian in Connecticut while he was living with his grandparents in Hawaii, who'da thunk it? :lol:

AnitaMaria · **Joined:** Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:41 pm **Posts:** 2115

I've seen parts of this story before. A troll posted about it at Doc C's last fall. The story includes a Catholic charity in CT that somehow helped Obama when he was supposedly in some federal foster care system. :-?

esseff44 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:33 pm

There are quite a few church supported NGO's that contract with the US Government to provide services. Here is one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Relief_Services

They (and quite a few other such as Luthern World Relief) provided services such a refugee resettlement for refugees and asylees on contract. These were enormous in the 70's as millions fled SE Asia.

Both of these have their HQ in Baltimore.

Citizen Like Obama · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:42 pm

Foggy wrote:

NEW THEORY from, of all places, my local forum (registration required so no link, but you have my word this was written by a lametard over there):

Quote:

He moved to Indonesia as a child. That is well-documented. He attended a school in Indonesia that required Indonseian citizenship. That is well-documented.

He was a US citizen, albeit not a natural born citizen, because his father was a British subject at the time of his birth. He immigrated back to the US in the late 70s as an unaccompanied minor and was placed in the custody of his grandmother as a resident alien; but a Catholic organization in CT was his legal guardian. He became a naturalized US citizen when he was about 20. His CT SSN# was a result of his guardianship with the government contractor (located in CT) that took in the unaccompanied minors coming in from overseas.

A good theory fits the facts, and this one is an improvement, if only there were a scintilla of evidence to support it ...

This sounds like the stuff the "SvenMagnussen" posts in Freeperville. Some people bite (because they have very strong confirmation bias), but many of the Freepers want links and some think he is just playing with them.

Here is a sample exchnage:

Quote:

To: SvenMagnussen
“Only the U.S. Federal Government can determine who is a U.S. Citizen and who is not. The U.S. Constitution provides for the Legislative Branch to articulate a uniform Naturalization process for U.S.Citizenship.

Biographical data on U.S. Citizens held by the U.S. Customs and Immigration Service supercedes biographical data held by the various states.

Obama was issued a Certificate of Naturalization in 1983. He holds all the rights and privileges of a U.S. Citizen, except he is ineligible for POTUS or VP.

The Bush Administration gave Sheriff Arpaio access to the files of Permanent Resident Aliens. In Dec. of 2011, Obama cancelled Sheriff Arpaio’s access to this data. Obama was a Permanent Resident Alien (Green Card Holder) from the age of 10 to the age of 22. He naturalized in 1983.”

What you say sounds very plausible. Have you any source, documentation, or back-up for these statements?

18 posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 12:15:27 PM by 2harddrive
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

Sugar Magnolia · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:52 pm

My adopted Vietnamese brother was in the custody of Catholic Charities when he landed in the US and until my parents got him. There was some discussion back and forth about adoption vs custody because he would lose all the benefits he had from CC. There was some sort of official government tie-in with CC but I'm not sure if it was as a contractor. I do know it allowed them to get the unaccompanied minors on assistance programs and health insurance and that sort of thing.

He's a citizen now.

Whatever4 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:00 pm

That is such a Sven story. He used to spam Doc's with his theories. You mean people fall for his crap? :roll:

aarrgghh · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:05 pm **Posts:** 1254

Citizen Like Obama wrote:

Some people bite (because they have very strong confirmation bias), but many of the Freepers want links and some think he is just playing with them.

indeed:

el sordo wrote:

Sven just makes this stuff up and trolls FR with it. He’s something of a joke because of it.

noboby can see sven's proof because:

svenmagnussen wrote:

If I post a scan of a document, then the first words out of your mouth will be, “It’s a fake!”

Consequently, you will actually have to get off the couch and obtain copies for yourself.

Do you want to see Obama’s Certificate of Naturalization? It’s at USCIS, Lee’s Summit, MO.

Do you want to talk to an eyewitness to Obama’s entire primary school education? Find Neal Boortz’s sister and ask her about it.

Or you can post questions and concerns on the net. It’s up to you.

TollandRCR · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:03 am

Foggy wrote:

... and you'll notice the Catholic organization early in the second paragraph becomes a government contractor by the end. ...

It has to be the Jesuits. Who knows what kind of contracts the United States of America, Inc., has negotiated with its owner, the English Crown?

Loren · **Joined:** Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:20 pm **Posts:** 3897

I'm still working on a Birther book, but that process got interrupted last year because one incarnation of the project turned into another book that I got a contract for. And it's now up on Amazon:

Bullspotting: Finding Facts in the Age of Misinformation

Due out in October. And don't worry: I still talk about Birthers.

Whatever4 · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:37 am

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Whatever4 · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:40 am

Loren wrote:

I'm still working on a Birther book, but that process got interrupted last year because one incarnation of the project turned into another book that I got a contract for. And it's now up on Amazon:

Bullspotting: Finding Facts in the Age of Misinformation

Due out in October. And don't worry: I still talk about Birthers.

Congrats! Will we be able to order on Kindle? I'd pre-order the paperback, bit I wouldn't be able to read it. OTH, it might make a nice Christmas present for W2.

verbalobe · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:42 am

Whatever4 wrote:

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mimi · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:03 pm

Loren wrote:

I'm still working on a Birther book, but that process got interrupted last year because one incarnation of the project turned into another book that I got a contract for. And it's now up on Amazon:

Bullspotting: Finding Facts in the Age of Misinformation

Due out in October. And don't worry: I still talk about Birthers.

Congratulations, Loren!

:-bd

Loren · **Joined:** Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:20 pm **Posts:** 3897

Whatever4 wrote:

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BFB · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:27 pm

Congrats, Loren!

PatGund · **Posted:** Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:30 pm

From "Rocky Mountain Mike", courtesy of the Stephanie Miller show. Some humour.

"I'm a Birther"

Falsehoods unchallenged only fester and grow.

Birther Potpourri

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