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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 4:23 pm 
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James David Manning offers The Prayer Against Same-Sex Marriage, beginning at ~ 5 minutes. Apparently his deity is hard of hearing, as he soon starts shouting. He proclaims that May 9 is a Day of Evil. Video posted May 13, 2012.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 4:44 pm 
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If I believed in a God I'd be pretty cross at the number of people who profess to know the mind of the God who deliberately created people as straight, gay or anything in between. This is not meant as snark at the religious, just exasperation at those who use religion as a platform for hatred and intolerance.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 4:51 pm 
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He's such a silly con. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Plutodog wrote:
He's such a silly con. :lol:

Which kind? Con-artist or Convict? Oh wait.
. . \:D/

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 5:27 pm 
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neonzx wrote:
Plutodog wrote:
He's such a silly con. :lol:

Which kind? Con-artist or Convict? Oh wait.
\:D/

:thunb:

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  • I know that there are no limits to which the powers of privilege will not go to keep the workers in slavery.
  • My friends, it is solidarity of labor we want. We do not want to find fault with each other, but to solidify our forces and say to each other: “We must be together; our masters are joined together and we must do the same thing.”
  • Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living.
—Mother Jones


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:26 pm 
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Tina Brown again shows why she is no longer editor of The New Yorker.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:39 pm 
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I have been listening to all of the bullshit since this announcement that it will kill the POTUS with black voters. That black voters will leave him in droves because of this announcement. As Zander said over at BJ, anyone who thinks that the black vote wouldn't crawl naked over broken glass to the polls to give the first black POTUS a second term is out of their fucking mind. It doesn't matter what his views on gay marriage are, it matters that he is the first black POTUS, the very idea that they are going to desert him in millions is just plain stupid, IMHO.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:44 pm 
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Andrew Sullivan: I didn't realize how important it would be until it happened

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:22 pm 
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Not that there are not black people who's religious conviction will make it hard for them to support reelection of the POTUS. Because there definitely are. We're dealing with faith here and fears for eternal damnation. Strange things happen. Further, just because one is or has been amongst a persecuted group, one doesn't necessarily learn to empathize with other persecuted groups or feel the very real human connection with those other "others". It's the saddest thing. Jesus saves, y'know. Back to the old Kristofferson song.

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Jesus was a Capricorn, he ate organic foods.
He believed in love and peace and never wore no shoes.
Long hair, beard and sandals and a funky bunch of friends.
Reckon they'd just nail him up if He come down again.

'Cos everybody's got to have somebody to look down on.
Who they can feel better than at anytime they please.
Someone doin' somethin' dirty, decent folks can frown on.
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me.

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  • I know that there are no limits to which the powers of privilege will not go to keep the workers in slavery.
  • My friends, it is solidarity of labor we want. We do not want to find fault with each other, but to solidify our forces and say to each other: “We must be together; our masters are joined together and we must do the same thing.”
  • Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living.
—Mother Jones


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:44 pm 
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NewsOne for Black America May 13, 2012 "Obama Violated 'Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell' of the Black Church" by Dr. Boyce Watkins
Quote:
So, by publicly expressing a sentiment that everyone already knew he believed in the first place, President Obama has violated the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy of homosexuality in the black church. Before this week, he could leave certain questions unanswered, and allow the black community to see him as the sanctified man they wanted to believe that he was.

By making his position clear, President has removed all ambiguity, like the husband who finally confirms to his wife that he really is having an affair. She might have instinctually picked up on his cheating ways in the past, but was able to live in the comfort of denial. When he finally “fesses up” to his relationship shortcomings, there is little room to deny that he is something other than the person you desire. Lines in the sand have been drawn, ultimatums have been issued, and decisions have to be made. Life is suddenly far more complex than it was before.

I am not sure how the gay marriage debate is going to end for President Obama. Michael Eric Dyson likely added a layer of complexity to the problem by using the term “sexual rednecks” in reference to those who oppose gay marriage. While I personally have no problems with gay marriage myself, the truth is that there is danger in proceeding with the debate without at least showing some degree of respect toward those who have dissenting opinions. Shouting down the opposition and treating them like dummies will only further solidify diverse viewpoints, leading some to hunker down in their own perspective. No amount of MSNBC propaganda can penetrate the psyche of a devout church member who’s believed the same thing for the last 40 years.

The black-liberal divide is now firmly out of the closet. Gay might be the new black for some, and it may really have to be the new black in order to replace votes in the next election. This could get really messy.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:31 am 
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Andrew Sullivan's article behind the Newsweek cover is (as would be expected) rather more nuanced than Tina Brown's cover. The Mainstream Shifts

Quote:
My cover-essay on Obama's historic embrace of full gay equality is now online. It isn't just about one interview:
Quote:
[It's easy to] be skeptical of Obama’s motives, of how long it took, of whether this is pure and late opportunism. But when you step back a little and assess the record of Obama on gay rights, you see, in fact, that this was not an aberration. It was an inevitable culmination of three years of work. He did this the way he always does: leading from behind and playing the long game.

And Obama's own life-story resonates with the same conflicts of identity that many gay people grow up with:
Quote:
Barack Obama had to come out of a different closet. He had to discover his black identity and then reconcile it with his white family, just as gays discover their homosexual identity and then have to reconcile it with their heterosexual family. The America he grew up in had no space for a boy like him: black yet enveloped by loving whiteness, estranged from a father he longed for (another common gay experience), hurtling between being a Barry and a Barack, needing an American racial identity as he grew older but chafing also against it and over-embracing it at times.

This is the gay experience: the discovery in adulthood of a community not like your own home and the struggle to belong in both places, without displacement, without alienation.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:08 pm 
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It took 11 years to go from" its wrong and I don't agree with it" to full 100% support. Her comment to me on all of this was simple. She said to me, "its a matter of acceptance. I had to accept it" I have always said there is two parts to coming out, there is what the person coming out has to go through coming out, then the family and friends have to go through their own "coming out". My mom has finished her "coming out" process and I am so proud that she has finally gotten it and fully accepted homosexuality.


From an excellent FB note:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_i ... 0395912773

Quote:
An open letter written by a friend of the Owls; Equality, Acceptance, Obama and America's Coming Out
As many of you know the Owls of the Report are activists themselves, today a friend wrote this personal message and we thought it was worth sharing with all of you. We won't comment on who it is because the story is one that so many could easily have lived themselves....
By: The Owl Report

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  • I know that there are no limits to which the powers of privilege will not go to keep the workers in slavery.
  • My friends, it is solidarity of labor we want. We do not want to find fault with each other, but to solidify our forces and say to each other: “We must be together; our masters are joined together and we must do the same thing.”
  • Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living.
—Mother Jones


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Question: When the same-sex marriage referendum came up in Maine a while ago, a Christian Conservative friend of mine said she was against it because it would have forced her church to perform same-sex marriages.

Is that true? And, on a related note, is it legal for individual churches (or members of the clergy or even entire denominations) to refuse to perform marriages that they consider miscegenous?

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:02 pm 
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AFAIK, anyone can refuse to perform a marriage ceremony for any reason. It's not hard to find someone to say some magic words and sign the license. Most people here get married at City Hall. Church weddings are too expensive for the average couple.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:06 pm 
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MaineSkeptic wrote:
Question: When the same-sex marriage referendum came up in Maine a while ago, a Christian Conservative friend of mine said she was against it because it would have forced her church to perform same-sex marriages.

Is that true?

NO.
Quote:
And, on a related note, is it legal for individual churches (or members of the clergy or even entire denominations) to refuse to perform marriages that they consider miscegenous?

YES.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:12 pm 
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Here's a list of who can perform marriages in each state:

In some states, anyone over 18 can do it.

http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/united ... ndex.shtml

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:16 pm 
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MaineSkeptic wrote:
Question: When the same-sex marriage referendum came up in Maine a while ago, a Christian Conservative friend of mine said she was against it because it would have forced her church to perform same-sex marriages.

Is that true? And, on a related note, is it legal for individual churches (or members of the clergy or even entire denominations) to refuse to perform marriages that they consider miscegenous?

The Catholic Church tells people all the time they won't perform the rite. Non-Catholics have to convert to be married in the church (at least that was true when we married 28 years ago) and they can flat out refuse to do it for divorced people who have no annulment.

Legal marriage and religious marriage (wedding) are 2 different things, but are frequently confused because the legal ceremony is performed in the church, usually amid great pomp and circumstance that obscures the legal aspect of it. A huge blow-out wedding in the church doesn't necessarily make it legal, any more than a Justice of the Peace in a cramped office with fake wood paneling makes it less than legal.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:59 pm 
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People for the American Way Right Wing Watch has compiled a list of statements from the religious right on President Obama's statement on same-sex marriage. Religious Right Slams Obama for Backing Marriage Equality. It is inappropriately headlined "Bill Donohue" for some reason, but many other familiar "leaders" are quoted.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:56 pm 
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I learn so much here!

I really appreciate the Fogbow and all you people allowing those of us with, well, less intellectual expertise, to participate. Thank you.

8>

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:41 am 
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Robert Marshall, a Virginia delegate wants to block the appointment of an openly gay judge to a general district court because his lifestyle is not recognized by the Virginia ban on same-sex marriage.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 16620.html

How often does a related issue come before a judge? Marshall is one of the fanatics that have been pulling the legislatures to the extreme.

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Research shows that 87.666 per cent of all statistics are made up.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:44 am 
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This is from George W. Bush's pollster of 2004, Jan van Lohuizen, and is discussed by Andrew Sullivan.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:18 am 
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TollandRCR wrote:
This is from George W. Bush's pollster of 2004, Jan van Lohuizen, and is discussed by Andrew Sullivan.

I saw it a couple days ago. Is he suggesting that Republicans and their Party should start "evolving" on this previously easy, yet increasingliy tired, wedge issue? :o :P

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:54 am 
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neonzx wrote:
TollandRCR wrote:
This is from George W. Bush's pollster of 2004, Jan van Lohuizen, and is discussed by Andrew Sullivan.

I saw it a couple days ago. Is he suggesting that Republicans and their Party should start "evolving" on this previously easy, yet increasingliy tired, wedge issue? :o :P

I read it as suggesting that the current Republican ideology on homosexuality and same-sex marriage is a losing ideology. It seems very unlikely that today's Republicans will pay much attention. They believe that they are in step with the public, despite the polls. Their evidence that they are acting on the people's will is what various legislatures or state electorates have done. More importantly, they have received dogma on their side. They have the TRUTH.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:34 am 
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esseff44 wrote:
Robert Marshall, a Virginia delegate wants to block the appointment of an openly gay judge to a general district court because his lifestyle is not recognized by the Virginia ban on same-sex marriage.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 16620.html

How often does a related issue come before a judge? Marshall is one of the fanatics that have been pulling the legislatures to the extreme.


Sadly the move to block the appointment succeeded this AM - haven't seen the vote yet but heard the end of a brief report on the radio.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Yes, the vote took place in the middle of the night with many abstentions and delegates who did not vote.

Quote:
Thorne-Begland received 33 votes, and 31 delegates voted against him. He needed a majority of the 100-member House -- 51 votes -- to secure the judgeship.


snip

Quote:
Thorne-Begland's nomination for a judgeship on the General District Court in Richmond, where he has been a prosecutor for 12 years, had been approved by courts committees in the House and Senate.

But his nomination came under fire late last week, as the Family Foundation and Del. Robert G. Marshall, R-Prince William, stoked fears that the 45-year-old attorney would allow his sexual orientation to influence his judicial decisions.

Republicans cast the 31 votes against Thorne-Begland. Ten Republican delegates abstained and 26 delegates, including a handful of Democrats, did not vote. Eight Republicans voted for Thorne-Begland.


More at the link:

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news ... r-1914948/

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Research shows that 87.666 per cent of all statistics are made up.


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