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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:21 am 
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The possibility of war between Iran and Israel merits discussion as a moral act, not just as a military strategy. Gunter Grass, winner of a Nobel Prize, author of many works respected worldwide, and former member of Hitler's Waffen SS (at age 17), has kindled that discussion with his poem:

English translation The Guardian April 5, 2012 "Günter Grass: 'What Must Be Said': Poem published in the Süddeutsche Zeitung, has created a heated debate in both Germany and Israel"

The reaction in Germany has been, at its most favorable to Grass, disappointment in one of Germany's most prominent writers. The reaction in Israel as been to declare Grass "persona non grata."

Excerpts from the poem would serve no purpose. It is apparent from worldwide reaction that the poem is being read in many different ways, ranging from a declaration that Grass has disclosed that he is still a Nazi to charges of anti-Semitism to a warning that Israel may be plotting its own doom to a plea for reasoned discussion of the poem, particularly in the context of the vibrant Israeli democracy.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:24 am 
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If Hitler was close to developing an atomic bomb in 1938 would it have been justifiable -- morally -- to undertake a military action against him to stop it?

That's the tenor of the question to the Israelis.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:47 am 
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And a good question.

On a possibly unrelated note, I have to wonder why the RSAF is playing with all their toys so much tonight.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:11 am 
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And what of Israel's having multiple nuclear weapons outside of any treaty system and under the control of semi-sane religionists?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:46 am 
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New York Times April 9, 2012 Letter to the Editor "Günter Grass’s Poem, and the Israeli Reaction" by ELI UNCYK.
Quote:
...
Mr. Grass is clearly not expressing anti-Semitic remarks. No one doubts his stated and demonstrated support of Israel. Rather than criticizing Mr. Grass’s expression of a political and practical way of reducing the risks of a war in the Middle East, readers should be studying and analyzing the piece, as any other literary piece, especially one designated as poetry.

Mr. Grass juxtaposes his guilt and anguish when addressing the German perpetration of the Holocaust, and has been a major force in compelling Germans to acknowledge it. But this does not commit him to be silent when he composes what, to him, is a way to extinguish an imminent catastrophe.

A reader need not agree with the views Mr. Grass expresses on the nuclear weapon issue. But in Israel, more than in any Middle East country, the right and even the obligation to read and debate his poem should be recognized as a democratic right.

This poem presents no clear or present danger to the security or safety of Israel. Rather, I read it as an opportunity to demonstrate the strength of Israel’s democracy.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:46 am 
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Sterngard Friegen wrote:
If Hitler was close to developing an atomic bomb in 1938 would it have been justifiable -- morally -- to undertake a military action against him to stop it?

That's the tenor of the question to the Israelis.


Agree that's how Israelis see it but then that's pretty much how Israelis see everything they believe concerns their country. I personally love how they have elevated criticism of a country policies into antisemitism and potential violence. For a people who started out ethnically cleansing the land they were granted, then unlawfully incorporated occupied territories into it's own land and effectively created the world's largest open air prison, I'm unclear as to how they can claim the higher moral ground or play the victim card day after day.

Oh that's right, its a Jewish theocracy so by definition they must be right and the victim.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:51 am 
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hitch wrote:
Sterngard Friegen wrote:
If Hitler was close to developing an atomic bomb in 1938 would it have been justifiable -- morally -- to undertake a military action against him to stop it?

That's the tenor of the question to the Israelis.


Agree that's how Israelis see it but then that's pretty much how Israelis see everything they believe concerns their country. I personally love how they have elevated criticism of a country policies into antisemitism and potential violence. For a people who started out ethnically cleansing the land they were granted, then unlawfully incorporated occupied territories into it's own land and effectively created the world's largest open air prison, I'm unclear as to how they can claim the higher moral ground or play the victim card day after day.

Oh that's right, its a Jewish theocracy so by definition they must be right and the victim.


This. Is. Spot. On.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:55 am 
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John Thomas8 wrote:
hitch wrote:
...
Oh that's right, its a Jewish theocracy so by definition they must be right and the victim.

This. Is. Spot. On.

This is not how I conceive the question. So far as I am concerned, Israel could be the last surviving outpost of Zoroastrianism, and the issues raised by Grass would still be relevant.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:43 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
John Thomas8 wrote:
hitch wrote:
...
Oh that's right, its a Jewish theocracy so by definition they must be right and the victim.

This. Is. Spot. On.

This is not how I conceive the question. So far as I am concerned, Israel could be the last surviving outpost of Zoroastrianism, and the issues raised by Grass would still be relevant.


Never thought of that. I have been highly ambivalent about Israel ever since 2000 when Sharon began unraveling the Accord. Plus Jewish emigres from oppressive regimes in the USSR brought those same oppressive attitudes with them. Avigdor Libermann is chief among them. The way they scream at the world is very much the way Orly screams at imaginary usurpers. They are paranoid. If you question their motives, they accuse you of antisemitism. This saw is getting old. They are highly dependent on the misplaced Christian belief they still have Jacob's birthright. And they successfully manipulate our evangelicals to the point where we have blissfully ignorant and fervently religious Christian soldiers serving in Israel. This frightens me.



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Tollie if you had been one of my professors, maybe I would have actually learned something valuable.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Israeli RWNJs are much like American RWNJs. While claiming to be the only true patriots of their country, they do vile, evil things that harm their country and tarnish its reputation in the world. While exploiting the opportunities that democracy gives them to seek power, they undermine and attack democracy itself.

I also despise two twin veins that course through every discussion of Israel in America. First, the instant accusations of anti-Semitism, more often from Christian RWNJs than Jewish Americans, that are immediately hurled in response to any criticism whatsoever of outrageous conduct from Israel's government. Second, the fact that actual anti-Semites often cloak their bigotry in the disguise of criticism of Israel. It makes it virtually impossible to have any kind of rational discussion of Israel's policies, even (actually especially) in an academic environment.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:42 pm 
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He's right. It needed to be said. It sounds less inflammatory in poesy than prose, thinks I.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:44 pm 
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kate520 wrote:
He's right. It needed to be said. It sounds less inflammatory in poesy than prose, thinks I.


But they still managed to end the conversation the same way they always do.

It's infuriating.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Maybe the conversation is not over; it may just be beginning.

Haaretz editorial April 4, 2012 Israel has reacted with hysteria over Gunter Grass
Quote:
After the poem he published to this effect in the German daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung last week drew extensive criticism, he asked to distinguish between the state and its government. It's not Israel that worries him, he said, but the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
...
The emotions can be understood, but it's hard to accept the overreaction. When the interior minister says, "If Gunter Grass wants to continue to distribute his false and distorted works, I suggest he do so from Iran, where he'll find an appreciative audience," he doesn't even detect the irony in his words. Because it's precisely his decision not to let Grass enter Israel because of a poem he wrote that is characteristic of dark regimes like those in Iran or North Korea.

The combination of declarations against Israel and a past as a Nazi soldier is an explosive combination that invites sharp reactions. But while Benjamin Netanyahu's remark describing Grass' work as "ignorant and shameful declarations that any fair person in the world must condemn" can be accepted as part of the public debate, Yishai's use of his governmental authority is not legitimate. Any protest should be expressed within the democratic-liberal framework, which allows every person to express his views - provocative though they may be.

Grass, a Nobel laureate for literature, did no more than write a poem. The State of Israel, through its interior minister, reacted with hysteria. It seems that at issue is less an undesirable person than an undesirable policy.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:14 pm 
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Where does this insistence that common Iranians hate Israel come from? Is it the same type of stupidity that the "right" in this country exhibits when they say Iranians hate Americans?

What's the value in fostering false hatred between peoples?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Sterngard Friegen wrote:
If Hitler was close to developing an atomic bomb in 1938 would it have been justifiable -- morally -- to undertake a military action against him to stop it?

That's the tenor of the question to the Israelis.


A better question would be: If we believed, based on conflicting data, that Hitler may be developing an atomic bomb in 1938, would Israel be morally justified in taking actions stopping it and is a military action the best/only option?

I am somewhat amazed about the outrage towards Gunther Grass and the irrelevant ad hominems about his Waffen SS history. The fact is that Israel does have nuclear capabilities, has some very "detrimental policies" towards the Palestinian people, and are very aggressive towards perceived threats (not to be confused necessarily with actual threats). As to Israel being a 'vibrant democracy' there are some aspects which may be more troubling and remembering how the democracy in the US fell in line with the lies of our administration shows how democracies can quickly fail.

Grass raises some good points and the response to brand him as an anti-semite or former SS'er only serves to stifle a voice in opposition to Israel's policies.

If found the following observations quite enlightening

Quote:
There is no question that the tragedy of genocide and persecution that befell the Jews in Europe in the last century should never happen again; not to the Jews, not to any other people, anywhere any time. But Israel insists on maintaining the uniqueness of the holocaust, in the sense that nothing similar had ever happened before and no other tragedy that occurred after should be compared, because if that is the case, that historic calamity will count as one of many and that is absolutely not acceptable as it may compromise the exceptionalism which is used to grant Israel its special status and license.

Over the years, this line of argument has been successful in silencing much worldwide criticism of unceasing Israeli atrocities, occupation and aggression, no more so than in Germany which remains burdened by its past. German leaders have sadly drawn the wrong conclusions from history: aiding and abetting Israel, even when it does wrong, is not a valid atonement for Germany’s historic crimes.

Source

Why indeed should Israel be excepted from the rules? Why should we accept Israel's attempt to label Grass as an anti-semite and his work as blood-libel of the Jews and allow his message to be lost.

Quote:
Salman Rushdie today offered his support to the Nobel laureate Gunter Grass, who has been banned from entering Israel for a poem, "What Must Be Said", published in German newspapers last week. Rushdie said, via Twitter, that “the issue ... is a bad poem and Israel’s bad response to it ... to ban him is infantile pique. The answer to words must always be more words.”

I have no idea how bad the poem is. I tried to read "What Must Be Said" but was stymied by poor German. It may be "confused poesie" as Die Welt declared. Grass may even have a "tin ear", as Nick Cohen, that scourge of effete liberals, said.

The subject of the poem is easier to grasp. Grass was commenting on the rush to attack Iran’s nuclear program, an attack the Telegraph’s Con Coughlin predicted would go ahead in September.


Source

I see many parallels here between Israel's actions wrt Iran and the hysteria after 9/11 which led us to invade a country based on lies.

"What must be said", original and 'translation'

I find the 'poem' quite reasonable...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:33 pm 
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John Thomas8 wrote:
And what of Israel's having multiple nuclear weapons outside of any treaty system and under the control of semi-sane religionists?


An uncomfortable truth which is left unaddressed by many for often obvious reasons. I find it ironic that Israel sees Iran's potential to develop Nuclear Weapons as a risk to them, but somehow fails to recognize that their possession of nuclear weapons can be a similar risk.

I believe that was part of Grass's message.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Sterngard Friegen wrote:
If Hitler was close to developing an atomic bomb in 1938 would it have been justifiable -- morally -- to undertake a military action against him to stop it?

That's the tenor of the question to the Israelis.

We suspected in 1939, if not earlier, that the Nazis were up to just that. The letter to President Roosevelt from Einstein, Szilard, and others was dated August 2, 1939.

There is, however, a big difference: Roosevelt had to mount a project to develop atomic weapons; by all accounts except official ones, Israel already has atomic weapons.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:59 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
Sterngard Friegen wrote:
If Hitler was close to developing an atomic bomb in 1938 would it have been justifiable -- morally -- to undertake a military action against him to stop it?

That's the tenor of the question to the Israelis.

We suspected in 1939, if not earlier, that the Nazis were up to just that. The letter to President Roosevelt from Einstein, Szilard, and others was dated August 2, 1939.

There is, however, a big difference: Roosevelt had to mount a project to develop atomic weapons; by all accounts except official ones, Israel already has atomic weapons.


Which isn't much comfort for the potential targets of those weapons. The Israeli government has proven they'll kill anyone, friend or foe, which opposes them.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:11 am 
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The Grass poem is not a stellar example of what modern poetry can be. Allowing for inept translations, it reads badly and inefficiently communicates its core message. However, that message makes sense to me (highlight mine):
Quote:
And granted: I am silent no longer
Because I am tired of the hypocrisy
Of the West; in addition to which it is to be hoped
That this will free many from silence,
That they may prompt the perpetrator of the recognized danger
To renounce violence and
Likewise insist
That an unhindered and permanent control
Of the Israeli nuclear potential
And the Iranian nuclear sites
Be authorized through an international agency
By the governments of both countries.


Only this way are all, the Israelis and Palestinians,
Even more, all people, that in this
Region occupied by mania
Live cheek by jowl among enemies,
And also us, to be helped.

This would have worked better as an op-ed.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:48 am 
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Sterngard Friegen wrote:
If Hitler was close to developing an atomic bomb in 1938 would it have been justifiable -- morally -- to undertake a military action against him to stop it?

That's the tenor of the question to the Israelis.

The U.S. had several opportunities to use a preemptive strike that it always declined to take. As the Soviets began to develop their atomic weapons, there were military officers, prominently Curtis LeMay, who planned and urged a preemptive strike on Soviet nuclear targets (as well as on Soviet industrial capacity). This was denied to them by two Presidents, Harry S Truman and Dwight Eisenhower.
Quote:
LeMay's first war plan, drawn up in 1949, proposed delivering "the entire stockpile of atomic bombs in a single massive attack" -- dropping 133 atomic bombs on 70 cities within 30 days. By the end of his term, the SAC was on constant alert and ready to execute an all-out atomic attack at a moments notice. LeMay was SAC commander until June 1957.

MacArthur, facing possible defeat in Korea, contemplated a nuclear attack on the North's chief military supporter, China. President Truman denied this and fired MacArthur. In the October Missile Crisis, LeMay again urged a first strike on the Soviet Union. He called the peaceful resolution of that crisis "the greatest defeat in our history."

The U.S. saw the Soviet development of the atomic bomb as a major threat, although perhaps not as an existential threat. We chose a different path than a preemptive strike: deterrence. It worked. Why would it not also work for the Israelis?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:22 am 
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The majority of responses to Gunter Grass's "poem" continues to be negative in Germany, Israel, and the rest of the world, with his plan for an international agency to monitor both Iran's and Israel's nuclear programs being dubbed unrealistic. One branch of his defenders is saying that Grass's service in the Waffen SS (he was drafted) is equivalent to Pope Benedict's service to the Nazi government. A big difference is that Ratzinger was in the Hitler Youth, not a nice group but certainly not the SS. Placement on the rolls of the Hitler Youth was required of all German boys at age 14.

There are defenders of Grass on the left. One of the sites that I monitor, the World Socialist Web site, often has articles that run against the tide ( :o ). Its April 11 editorial, Stop the warmongers! Defend Günter Grass! by Wolfgang Weber notes
Quote:
Grass went on to declare bluntly that, “the nuclear power Israel endangers an already fragile world peace.” He addressed the German past, writing of a “country of crime without comparison.” His criticism was directed, he stressed, at the Israeli government and not Israel itself—“a country to which I am bound and will remain bound.”
...
The smear campaign against Grass is aimed at covering up the real reasons for the war preparations. They have no more to do with Iran’s alleged pursuit of nuclear weapons than the drive to war against Iraq was motivated by that country’s supposed weapons of mass destruction and ties to Al Qaeda. Once again, lies are being used to conceal a drive to maintain the military domination of the United States and its main Middle East ally Israel over a strategic region and its vast energy resources.
...
It is this campaign for war that poses the real threat to both the Iranian people and the Jewish population in Israel, not Günter Grass.

All those who oppose war in the Middle East and the growing threat of a new world war must defend Günther Grass and oppose the warmongers in Berlin, Washington and Tel-Aviv as well as their lackeys in the media.

It is not only the right wing conspiracy kooks who claim that the MSM are in the pockets of the powers-that-be.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Grass's service in the Waffen SS (he was drafted)


And an enlisted man in the 10th SS Panzer division. There is a incredible difference between line SS units and mass murdering SS groups. The bogieman invocation of Waffen SS as a blanket description is highly suspect.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:32 pm 
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John Thomas8 wrote:
...And an enlisted man in the 10th SS Panzer division. There is a incredible difference between line SS units and mass murdering SS groups. The bogieman invocation of Waffen SS as a blanket description is highly suspect.

I had the German philosopher and mathematician Paul Lorenzen for my logic class in my senior year. His textbook, Formal Logic, is perhaps the most elegant textbook that I ever studied. I don't remember how it came up, but he once remarked that he served in the Nazi army and was in either an artillery or a tank unit (I don't remember). He swore that he fought on the Eastern front, which made me kind of sad for him that he thought that still mattered in the 1960s. He apparently also taught in the German Naval War College, as befits one of the pioneers of game theory. His story of fighting on the front might have been fiction; his mind was too valuable to put him at that risk. Or he might have preferred fighting to doing theoretical work for the Nazis.

He was a fine man. Despite the findings in Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust, I am sure that he was not anti-Semitic.

Lorenzen thought that John Silber, the chair of the Philosophy department who pretended to be a scholar of Immanuel Kant, was an idiot. This alone must prove something.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:22 pm 
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An awful lot of fine people wound up fighting for the "wrong" side, just as a lot of Assholes wound up fighting for the "right" side. Rommel is considered by historians to be a one of the fine people fighting on the wrong side.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:58 pm 
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Suranis wrote:
An awful lot of fine people wound up fighting for the "wrong" side, just as a lot of Assholes wound up fighting for the "right" side. Rommel is considered by historians to be a one of the fine people fighting on the wrong side.

Yes. Rommel refused to carry out Hitler's orders to execute Allied prisoners rather than let them surrender. He may have been sympathetic to the July 20 plot against Hitler. Despite his old friendship with Hitler, he was a vigorous critic of Nazi incompetence. He committed suicide rather than letting Hitler execute his family and himself.

If Hitler had not denied Rommel his request to unleash his Panzer division on the Allied invasion of Normandy, D-Day might have turned out differently.

I don't know what Gunter Grass was or thought as a young soldier. Chances are pretty good that having grown up under Hitler, he was at least superficially a Nazi. I wish that he had not concealed that service for so long. Many Nazis did so, and some remained Nazis to their dying day. The movie 'The Nasty Girl' is about how Nazis hid among their fellow Germans, sometimes rising to power. Chancellor Konrad Adenauer, who had endured a Nazi concentration camp, permitted Hans Globke to serve as one of his principal advisers, even though Globke (not a member of the Nazi Party) had served in the Office for Jewish Affairs. A totalitarian state tends to be able to take whomever it pleases into its service.

The salient question is whether Grass has today any ideas that might help Israel and Iran not go to war.

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