New thread for those who have watched all of the episodes from Season 1 and Season 2.1. Spoilers WILL occur, so Newbies, you have been warned. Return to this thread after you have caught up.

The entire series will rerun on AMC on Dec 31st, beginning at 11am (E&P).

Continuing a conversation that began in the non-spoiler thread.



In an extras clip or article, one of the writers or directors said that this is a world in which there had never been Zombies before, so no one knew about Zombies before the apocalypses.

I think those who, like me, haven't read the graphic novels are at a tiny disadvantage. Or not. That might not have been something that was mentioned in the novels.



Episode 1 was chocked full of zombies (with attacks). Episode 2 (watched last night) had 2 or 3 (with attacks). First 2 episodes of season 2 has had 3-5 zombie attacks, depending on how ya count 'em. I don't recall episode 3 having a walker, but zombies and attacks return. Glenn has a very interesting line in episode 6 or 7 that explains why the writers briefly decreased the number of zombies.

Additional response:

I can appreciate the desire of moar noms. Moar noms are on the way.

Without the decrease in the number of Zombies and Zombie attacks, the final scene would have had much less power. We would have felt much less empathy for Rick's decisions throughout the season I felt Rick's pain in that final scene, when he raises his gun for only our most special zombie. It is only then that Rick understands how deeply Hershel is in la-la land. Only then does he realize that Zombies must die; it is more humane to shoot them than it is to let them live. Our most special zombie was too little to be a threat to anyone but Carl. She didn't have to be shot. The barn was set up and she could have been fed animals. But Rick did what must be done; Rick did what was humane. Hershel doesn't understand this yet, but it was cruel of him to let his friends and family live once they turned.

Had we not experienced the serenity of Hershel's farm, Maggie's transformation would have been minor. But her transformation isn't minor. She goes from protecting her father and Zombie family to giving Glenn permission to participate in clearing out the barn ... the barn that contained family and friends. I respected Maggie's choice.

Had Hershel's farm not been so safe, so serene, we would have had much less patience with Hershel. We know that Hershel is in la-la land; the survivors know that he is in la-la land. But Rick plays by Hershel's rules because of the hell that life was with the constant threat of Zombie attack. We needed to see the two differing worlds in order to understand Hershel, Rick, Shane and ... Glenn. We see Glenn go from supporting character to main character in the last episode of Season 2.1. We see Glenn become a man in that episode. We the viewer always knew Glenn was a man, but now the group knows it. Now Maggie knows it. Glenn has transformed from her young love to her man.

Imagine what the final scene would have been like had we continued to see Zombie attacks. Could we have understood the depth of Rick's decisions? Could we have understood Maggie's transition from her father's beliefs to Glenn's? Could we have understood Hershel's denial? Could we have so fully believed Glenn's transition? I don't think we would have.

We already watched what like was like with the constant Zombie threat. We could only understand Rick's choices and Hershel's beliefs if the threat appeared to be less intense.

The next episode is going to explain so much of this. I think that Rick's decisions were completely shaped by what he learned from Jenner at the CDC. Rick is the only character who knows the truth of what is to come, and thus, he makes what appears to be ridiculous decisions. Would Rick have gone along with Hershel's rules without knowing what Jenner said? Would Rick agree to the "no gun" rule if he didn't know how badly the group needed to stay at the farm? Would he have helped capture animated Zombie's instead of killing them? (Hell no! Those Zombies were stuck in muck; they were easy kills.) Would Rick have stood aside, begging Shane to stop clearing the barn if he didn't have the info he has from Jenner? No; Rick would have been shoulder to shoulder with Shane, shooting down walkers.

Rick did what he did because the group's survival depends on it. He even put one foot into Hershel's la-la land because he knew he had to. But once our most special Zombie emerges from the barn, we see Rick reborn. Rick realizes that any attempt to live in Hershel's world comes at too steep a price.

I think that season 2.1 is all about the next 1 or 2 episodes, which will take the show to a new level. We will learn what Jenner said, and it will be horrific.

Question. Does anyone think that Rick's group is going to take Hershel's farm by force? I think that Rick might decide that he has no other choice. The teaser for episode 8 shows Hershel ordering everyone off his land. But Rick has been reborn. Rick's understanding of humanity has just changed. He would never have taken Hershel's land before, but I think he just might lead a take over, esp since Lori is expecting.

And WTF! Who doesn't abort during a Zombie apocalypse?! Seriously, once 8 months along, women can hardly walk. How is Lori going to live when she can't run?! The morning after pills wouldn't have worked, but still, you don't try to stay pregnant during a Zombie apocalypse!

From the non-spoiler thread:



Loh, I have to call you out on your "2-3" Zombies criticism of season 2, now that I can talk in more detail.

Dude, the high school. The high school. We watched noms noms noms in full, close-up glory. Then Daryl (like you, I am a huge Daryl fan ... and never thought I would have been during the first season) is attacked while wounded and hallucinating in the woods.

When I watched season 2, it felt slower. It is slower. Once I watched it again, I realized there is much more to the season. Season 1 had a lot to do in 6 episodes. Season 2 has been given 13 episodes.

Perhaps one reason the season feels a bit slower is because the group is more equipped to handle them and avoid Zombies now. Until the end of episode 1.4, the group had few firearms, and they didn't have the awesome weapons that Carl found in episode 2.1. (That kid is brave!)

What would you like to see more of in the next 6 episodes? We have almost as many noms when we compare the 2 seasons. We have more Zombies in season 2., and I'm not just referring to those in episode 2.1 or 2.6.

Where do you think Rick is headed in second 1/2 of season 2?

I think he's going to have to decide whether he respects Hershel's wishes, since Hershel is going to ask them to leave, or whether he decides that he's going to have to override him. I also think the tension between Rick and Shane is going to erupt to the forefront, quite possibly immediately. Shane forcing the issue of the barn walkers puts everyone else in a difficult situation.

I'm sort of not sure why they can't just grab one of the other nearby farms that are probably still in reasonably good shape and not too nommed up.

Re: slowness.

Let me point out that there are 14 books in the series. Season one got halfway through the first book.

Didn't you pay attention?!

That was Hershel's solution. Maggie explained why that wasn't possible in episode 2.5 or 2.6. Maggie said that all of the other farms are either burned or "too full of walkers". She said that she checked all of the area farms. That would make sense. She is one of the few in Hershel's group who can scavenge.

While the group could go mow down a farm of walkers, there would be more walkers nearby who would respond to the gunfire before the group could secure the new farm well enough to keep the group safe. Hershel's farm is also a working farm, with crops and farm animals that feed Hershel's family.

When you look at the fields, you see that Hershel's farm has several layers of fences, which is one reason why it is so secure. It also has generators and 5, uh, 4 water wells. The only way to know how safe the water supply is on the other farms would be for someone to drink it. I don't know if one can boil out Zombie germs. Non-humans don't turn, so you can't use animals to test the water.

While the group can shoot 12 Zombies at Hershel's farm, clearing an entire farm of Zombies would use up too much ammo. The other farms are too overrun for anyone to kill Zombies by hand; using guns would be the only alternative.

Rick's group is weaker than it ever has been. If Rick's group was as large as it was initially, clearing out a farm and securing it would be possible. Right now, there just aren't enough able people to reclaim a farm. There are only 9 in Rick's group; one is 8/9, one is 64 and one is pregnant. And Rick's group is almost out of food.

Note: I'm not saying that those of retirement age and pregnant women can't work super hard. However, in this series, while each person contributes significantly, Lori, Carl and Dale aren't able to contribute as physically as others. No one expects them to do so. (Well, once they know that Lori is pregnant they won't expect her to work as hard).

Finally, the group is low on fuel. They can't keep driving to look for farms away from Hershel's area. Their options are Hershel's farm or Ft. Benning.

I think that Ft. Benning is gone. Every other secure place is gone; the military couldn't keep any location secured. At the CDC, everyone ran, "opted-out" or turned. At the hospital, the military massacred civilians and patients. I think that every secure location is overrun, including military bases ... if they are still standing. If the CDC imploded, so would every other super-secure national location.

I want to read the books, but I don't want to ruin the tv series.

On AMC's site, assholes will stop by with book spoilers. I hate that.

Maybe I will read the books after season 2 ends.

We've seen a couple of those houses. The one Daryl went into while looking for Sofia was pretty rough, but probably salvageable.



I don't think it would sustain a much larger group, though, in the long term, though I suppose maybe it could, seeing as they appear to have an endless supply of chickens to throw away on walkers.



I think those forts are probably the worst place imaginable to go. They were probably the last thing to fall and would be full of zombified soldiers, possibly in full riot gear. Imagine the fun when the walkers have flak jackets and riot helmets.

Based on the timeline discussed on Hershel's farm, Sophia was likely bit right after visiting the farm that she hid in. That was the only house that has been on the show, and it was damaged. Perhaps it is salvageable. However, as I mentioned, Hershel's farm is already a working farm with crops planted. Rick's group wouldn't even have seed for the following spring.



I wondered about the chickens as well. I think that they are only using chickens for eggs and feeding to zombies. However, we have no knowledge of how often and how much the zombies are fed. The zombie apocalypse went global 4 months before the group gets to Hershel's farm. We don't know how many zombies have been in the barn and for how long they have been in there, but many of the zombies look "newish".

As I mentioned, Hershel has crops that are almost ready for harvest. When the crop was planted, Hershel had 3 members in his group that are now gone. We know that Otis hunted for Hershel's group. Rick's group can do more hunting then Otis could and now Rick's group can do more hunting for themselves because they can leave the women, children and weaker members of the group on the farm while hunting. Now that Andrea is a kick ass shooter, she can protect the camp when most of the men are gone.

Hershel's farm has fruit trees and a large garden. Hunting, eggs, and canned vegs/fruit could get the larger group through the winter. The garden could be expanded in the spring because there would be more people to tend a larger garden. Fishing appears to be good at the quarry, so drying fish for the winter is also an option. Hershel's group may be better off through the winter now that Rick's group has arrived. Otis' gun is gone, and was, IIRC, that was the only rifle on the farm until Rick's group arrived. Hershel's group has lost most of their hunting ability because of Otis' death and the loss of his rifle.



Good point. I hadn't considered zombies with riot helmets!

None of the military members at the CDC or the FEMA camp at the local high school had riot gear but they did have helmets. I think zombies would remove any helmet that blocked feeding. However, I don't know if zombies have the fine motor skills necessary to remove such a helmet.

Hershel's group is screwed without a hunter. Rick's group is screwed without fresh food. An alliance would be in both groups best interest, but after the barn shooting, I can't imagine Rick's group being allowed to stay at Hershel's farm. Perhaps Hershel would allow it if Shane was forced to leave. But would Rick kick Shane out? Maybe ... maybe not.

Question: Do zombies starve to death? If zombies don't feed, will they become dead dead people? Or do zombies only die if shot in the brain?

We can probably bring back the spoilery thread. But in case anyone has forgotten we have one.

Oops! I put my speculation that Beth got bit where nobody could see on t'other thread!

I am surprised that no one thought to look for scratches on Beth. Of course she is infected. I can understand that Hershel's group may not understand that a scratch is enough to do you in, but Rick's group knows. Lori and Andrea have to know that Beth is infected. On the other hand, the day had been traumatic; no one would be thinking straight. And no one would want to think that Beth is infected. I think that Andrea and Lori are keeping their concerns to themselves. Or they're idiots.

I think that the writers added the car crash to cause Lori to miscarry her pregnancy. In the Graphic Novels, Lori does give birth. But there is no way that any tv show could get away with having an infant on TWD film set. An infant under 6 months can only be filmed for 20 mins total per day; they can only be on set for 2 hours max. An infant from 6 months-to 2 years can be filmed for 2 hours and on set for 4 hours max. The Walking Dead just can't work with an infant. Because the show is a survival show, it isn't as if the infant can make occasional appearances. The core group is too small to keep a member occupied "somewhere" with the baby. No way is Lori or Rick going to let an infant sleep in the RV on its own; Walkers come out from no where. Besides, Lori would have to be breastfeeding every 2 hours. An infant won't work on this show.

I was watching an extra a few months ago. The actress who plays Lori was asked about the make-up process for the show. She said the main products used are sunscreen and ... dirt. There won't be an infant on that show.

Just watch; I will be totally wrong!

I thought the scene with the 2 strangers in the bar was interesting. We see that Rick has become hard. He has had to become hard. The 2 strangers would have brought in more assholes to rape the women and pillage the farm. 2 hours before the shooting, Lori was begging Rick not to go because Carl was getting cold and needed his dad around. Then dad shoots 2 strangers (who were going to kill him). The death of Sofia made everything click for Rick. He gets it. Rick is always talking about how the old rules don't apply. Sofia's transformation convinced him that his words are true. He gets it now.

I was hoping there would be more to episode 2.8. But I think the next episode will be much more intense; Hershel now realizes how bad the world has become. Then there is the issue of his daughter turning because he was in complete denial about his wife being a Zombie!

I hate it when that happens!

How is it that a zombie scratch can infect you, but getting splashed with Zombie blood on a daily basis doesn't?

Glenn keeps cracking me up. He shoots his beloved's zombie family and friends, buries them and 4 hours later is in angst because he didn't say "I love you, to" when Maggie told him that she loves him. Glenn is so lost as he tries to navigate the world of luv.

How old is Glenn?

Question: Is Shane going to be kicked off the island?

I thought tonight's episode was excellent!

I thought that Rick was going to leave Shane in the bus surrounded by walkers.

I'm not sure that I would have allowed Shane to return to the farm. While he is critical to the safety of the group, Shane has become a more of a risk than an asset in the past few episodes. Shane is so out of control that I don't think he is able to protect the group anymore. He has become too consumed by darkness to be of use to the group.

Were there enough noms noms in this latest episode for our gentlemen??

This was a fun one. I also, too, was expecting Shane to be left in the bus, but I'm glad he wasn't; we needs that tension for another episode or twelve.

I'll further indulge my love of good zombie apocalypse by watching, once again, Zombieland, which just started on FX. Doouble tap, two to the head.

I knew he wasn't going to leave Shane behind, but I still loved the look on Shane's face when it looked like he was going to, then the look on his face when he realized Rick had come back for him after all. What's particularly funny is if Rick had left him behind, he would have done the same thing Shane had done to Otis.

I'll miss Shane if they have to kill him, not only because I like the character, but because along with Norman Reedus and Scott Wilson, Jon Bernthal is one of the best actors on the show, which often has wooden dialogue and WTF facial expressions. If I see Dale give someone that bug-eyed stare one more time, I'll flip out. But I'll complain about Dale some episode he actually does something. Looks like next episode.

It will be interesting to see if Shane settles down a bit. Rick has thrown down the gauntlet. Shane either accepts Rick's authority or he leaves. Shane either accepts that Lori, Carl and the baby-to-be are Rick's or Shane leaves.

But can Rick carry through with his threat to banish Shane? While Rick didn't use the word "banish", he did tell Shane that "if" Shane expected to stay with the group, he had to submit and to accept the realities of Rick's family situation. Would Rick really banish or kill Shane if necessary? I think that is the core question of Rick's leadership. I think the group wants to know what Rick is planning to do with Shane.

Shane is overconfident in his ability to survive on his own. Loh, you make a great point about Shane's facial response to seeing Rick walk away. I hope part of that reaction was the realization that no one can survive this new world on their own regardless of how strong and adaptive they are. Shane likes to fantasize about walking away on his own or with Andrea, but one or two people are not enough in this new world. Shane needs to realize that he needs the group just as much or even more than they need him.

Extra-special, painfully long and drawn out, deliciously terminal bug-eyed stare sequence.

At least they gave him his best performance in any episode. I think he was dead wrong about Randall, though Carl is looking like he's more of a menace to the group than anyone else. That has to be the dumbest kid on the face of the planet.

Yeah he sure gave us a bug eye last night as his chest was being torn open.

Just curious if anyone here has read the comics. There have been quite a few changes in the show from the comics but I'm interested in seeing seeing what else they might incorporate.

Yeah, it might be time for Carl to be shuffled off this mortal coil, after causing more mayhem through inaction, but I doubt that they'd kill off another kid so soon after Sophia. On the other hand, it could make for a redemption/coming of age sub-plot.

With 15 minutes left, if Shane doesn't die before the closing credits, I'm a Zombies uncle. Or next week. Bet hedged.

Ooo...



C'mon, Rick, dammit!

This exchange from episode before last has new meaning:

Shane: (getting ammo ready and seeing Dale walking up) What's up Dale?
Dale: (talking about Randall) I want to change your mind.
Shane: (scoffs) You serious?
Dale: You and I will never see much eye to eye on much.
Shane:Say that'dbe the understatement of the year.
Dale: But uh...you aren't going anywhere.
Shane: No.
Dale: And I'm not going anywhere. So let us talk about this like men.

Two episodes later, both gone.

It's also interesting they finally seem to have confirmed something they've been hinting at for a while, that now, if you die of anything, you come back as a walker. Supposedly, that is the secret Dr. Jenner whispered to Rick right before the CDC went kablooey.

Yeah, I was caught by surprise when Shane got up slavering. I'd missed the Dr. Jenner connection, though.

However...since Dale hadn't died, much less turned, before he was shot (only once, I think) in the head, might we see a somewhat trephinated zombie Dale shambling all bug-eyed across our screens? I mean, from a strict continuty perspective, the change takes place in the lizard brain, if you will, then spreads. They never address the spread in those who actually die from brain injuries with the origin point still intact.