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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:42 am 
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Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Let's be sane about this. Mitt Rmoney will be the Republican nominee. No challenger lasts more than a few weeks.

:-
Quote:
Santorum’s Surge Holds Steady So Far
By NATE SILVER
Ten days after Rick Santorum’s surprisingly strong wins in the Minnesota and Colorado caucuses, there is no sign yet that his surge in the polls is abating.
(...)
Image
(...)
Nevertheless, Mr. Santorum’s bounce has already had considerably more staying power than those of some of his rivals. Newt Gingrich’s surge in the national polls, for instance, peaked just 24 or 48 hours after his victory in South Carolina, whereas Mr. Santorum’s has now persisted for more than a week.

Indeed, Mr. Santorum may be benefiting from the continued decline in Mr. Gingrich’s numbers. Recent polls have suggested that more of Mr. Gingrich’s supporters were winding up in Mr. Santorum’s column, which may be helping to offset any gains that Mr. Romney is making because of advertising.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:59 am 
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BillTheCat wrote:
DaveMuckey wrote:
Am I the only one who sees an ice cream cone whenever Foster Friesse is brought up?


haha me too :) We used to have Foster Freezes all over the place where I lived


I,too,thought of soft-swirled ice cream cones whenever he was mentioned. There's good reason in addition to ''Foster' and 'frost' being close as well as

"Friess" and "freeze." The trademark for the fast food chain Foster's Freeze was a giant ice cream cone with a chef's hat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosters_Freeze.

It is now in association with 'El Pollo Loco.'

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:41 pm 
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For those who don't believe Santorum could possibly be the Republican nominee, I suggest you read about the 1964 Republican primary season. That one also had several big name Republicans fall by the wayside. It ended differently from what many predicted in February 1964.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Joseph Robidoux III wrote:
For those who don't believe Santorum could possibly be the Republican nominee, I suggest you read about the 1964 Republican primary season. That one also had several big name Republicans fall by the wayside. It ended differently from what many predicted in February 1964.

The Wikipedia article on the 1964 race for the Republican nomination could be written almost word-for-word about today, with only substitutions of names:
Quote:
The Republican Party was divided in 1964 between its conservative and moderate-liberal factions. Former Vice-President Richard Nixon, who had been beaten by Kennedy in the extremely close 1960 presidential election (subsequently losing the 1962 election for Governor of California) decided not to run. Nixon, a moderate with ties to both wings of the GOP, had been able to unite the factions in 1960; in his absence the way was clear for the two factions to engage in an all-out political civil war for the nomination. Barry Goldwater, a Senator from Arizona, was the champion of the conservatives. The conservatives had historically been based in the American Midwest, but beginning in the 1950s the conservatives had been gaining in power in the South and West. The conservatives favored a low-tax, small federal government which supported individual rights and business interests and opposed social welfare programs. The conservatives also resented the dominance of the GOP's moderate wing, which was based in the Northeastern United States. Since 1928 the Eastern moderates had successfully defeated conservative presidential candidates at the GOP's national conventions. The conservatives believed the Eastern moderates were little different from liberal Democrats in their philosophy and approach to government. Goldwater's chief opponent for the Republican nomination was Nelson Rockefeller, the Governor of New York and the longtime leader of the GOP's liberal-moderate faction. When Rockefeller was knocked out of the race by Goldwater, the party's moderates and liberals turned to William Scranton, the Governor of Pennsylvania, in the hopes that he could stop Goldwater.

The candidates who fell by the wayside:
Nelson Rockefeller, Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr., William Scranton, Harold Stassen, and others.

The potential candidates who chose not to run:
Richard M. Nixon, Everett Dirksen, Mark Hatfield, George Romney, and others.

Did the Goldwater debacle put the Republican Establishment back in the driver's seat? By one criterion yes: Richard Nixon was nominated in 1968 and won, overcoming the third-party threat of George Wallace. Jimmy Carter served a single term, but then Ronald Reagan was nominated and won.

There is reason to fear a Santorum nomination and reason not to count on a Goldwater debacle.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:09 pm 
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When Rockefeller was knocked out of the race by Goldwater, the party's moderates and liberals turned to William Scranton, the Governor of Pennsylvania, in the hopes that he could stop Goldwater.
My Uncle Bill (mom's first cousin).

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:18 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
There is reason to fear a Santorum nomination and reason not to count on a Goldwater debacle.


I would like to point out that 8 of the States so far have passed the "gay" marriage bill. In 7 it is the law of the land in Jersey though, Big Boy vetoed it.

:?: Will the legislature (or whatever they call their assembly) override Gov. Christie's veto :?: :?:

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:43 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
There is reason to fear a Santorum nomination and reason not to count on a Goldwater debacle.

Don't confuse Barry Goldwater with any of todays social conservatives. Goldwater was a fiscal conservative and closer to todays libertarians than todays social conservatives. He despised the religous right commandeering the Republican party.
Barry Goldwater wrote:
I think every good Christian should kick [Jerry] Falwell right in the ass.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quote ... 77158.html
I must be getting old. I remembered the above quote as kicking Falwell in the nuts.

Edit: I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass.
Said in July 1981 in response to Moral Majority founder Jerry Falwell's opposition to the nomination of Sandra Day O'Connor to the Supreme Court, of which Falwell had said, "Every good Christian should be concerned." as quoted in Ed Magnuson, "The Brethren's First Sister," Time Magazine, (20 July, 1981)
According to John Dean, Goldwater actually suggested that good Christians ought to kick Falwell in the "nuts", but the news media "changed the anatomical reference." Dean, John (2008). Broken Government: How Republican Rule Destroyed the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial Branches. Penguin Group. "I know because I was there when he said it."
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater
Good. Now I feel better.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Joseph Robidoux III wrote:
...Don't confuse Barry Goldwater with any of todays social conservatives. Goldwater was a fiscal conservative and closer to todays libertarians than todays social conservatives. He despised the religous right commandeering the Republican party.

True. In today's Republican Party, Goldwater would have lost to Santorum or any of the other clowns once favored by the religious right. It is the dynamics, not the candidates, that create a resemblance between 2012 and 1964. A big difference is that President Obama does not have LBJ's advantage of having succeeded to a martyr's office.

My point is that the country would be safer with an Obama vs. Romney race than with a Santorum/Gingrich/Paul vs. Obama race. I am saying that Democrats who are voting in Republican primaries for Santorum are doing the country a disservice. It is too big a risk.

Then I get to the question of who would be ruling in a Romney presidency: Mittens or the Apostles in Salt Lake City?

Nothing is good on the Republican side of the race for the presidency. I don't see anyone of the quality that the Republican Establishment tried to nominate in 1964. It would be great if a Santorum nomination destroyed the power of the religious right and RWNJ's in the Republican Party. I just hope there is some other way to accomplish that.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:20 pm 
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If I had the chance to vote in a primary like Michigan, I would vote for Ron Paul. There is no way the GOP is going to allow him to be their nominee no matter how many delegates he has. He is the one the power brokers fear the most as far as getting delegates and influence. They do everything they can to marginalize him. Look at what they have done in Maine to not count the votes in places where he won or was expected to win. Rachel has been following this but I haven't seen anyone else pay attention to it.

It will be very interesting to see what happens in Washington County, Maine today.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:30 pm 
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esseff44 wrote:
It will be very interesting to see what happens in Washington County, Maine today.


Actually, it's Hancock (where I live) as well as Washington Counties, and according to the Bangor Daily News,

Quote:
Ron Paul scores win in Hancock, Washington County voting as state nears end of GOP caucuses

Texas Congress Ron Paul was the top choice in a presidential nominee preference poll conducted by registered Republican voters here as Maine winds up its controversial GOP caucuses.

Paul attracted 41 votes, more than twice the votes for Mitt Romney, who had 16. Rick Santorum attracted 17 votes, while Newt Gingrich finished last with 9.

...

Hancock County Republican Committee Chairman Eric White assured caucus-goers that their presidential preference poll votes would be tallied when the GOP State Committee resolves the controversial process of counting votes from throughout the state. “My job is to make sure every vote gets counted,” White said. “We’re going to be included.”

Maine Senate President Kevin Raye, a Republican, said Friday that Washington County’s results would be included in the final tally for the poll, but that the Republican State Committee will have to vote at its March 10 meeting whether to include results from other towns that voluntarily chose to hold their caucuses after Feb. 11.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Open mouth, insert feet.

Quote:
Rick Santorum In 2008: Mainstream Protestantism Fell Out Of 'World Of Christianity'
As far as Rick Santorum is concerned, mainstream Protestantism "is gone from the world of Christianity." That's what he told students at Florida's Ave Maria University, founded by Domino's Pizza mogul Tom Monaghan, during a 2008 lecture.

The clip was unearthed by People for the American Way and played on Saturday's "Up With Chris Hayes" on MSNBC.


Quite an active discussion follows.

-xx -xx


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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:02 pm 
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I really have to disagree that elevating Santorum to nominee is bad for us. Sorry, but IMO Obama would destroy him. He has no debate skills, little if any base overall, and his views will turn the majority off, including most women. I'm not scared of Santorum in the least, and don't get why anyone else would be. :|

I mean, the latest - he thinks the entire Protestant faith is not Christian. Yeh, that'll get votes.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:04 pm 
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BillTheCat wrote:
I really have to disagree that elevating Santorum to nominee is bad for us. Sorry, but IMO Obama would destroy him. He has no debate skills, little if any base overall, and his views will turn the majority off, including most women. I'm not scared of Santorum in the least, and don't get why anyone else would be. :|


Amen.


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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:20 pm 
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SantorumGoogle It would be slaughtered in the general election and that would lead to a split in the Party. But, as I've said before, let's be sane. Rmoney will be the nominee. And that, too, should lead to a splintering.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:45 pm 
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People on TV a night or two ago were talking about that Santorum Romney-as-gunslinger ad, and someone pointed to the fact that Santorum is associating himself with a visual of a spurting brown, viscous liquid.

Is someone really, really dumb or really, really evil?

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Santorum may have a path out of this mess. Many evangelicals agree with Santorum that mainstream Protestant churches are not Christian or not fully Christian. Most of the mainstream Protestant and some Orthodox churches are members of the National Council of Churches. The National Missionary Baptist Convention of America may be the only evangelical, Pentecostal, or fundamentalist church among the members, and I am not sure about it. Things are much uglier on that side of the fence than you might think.

What binds Santorum and the evangelical/Pentecostal/fundamentalist churches is that some members of the latter are full-bore Christian Reconstructionists or Dominionists, just as Santorum has made clear that he is. The influence of Rousas John Rushdoony (1916-2001), once a Presbyterian minister and founder of this form of theonomy, pervades the thinking of the religious right, as is made clear in this article on the far-right Web site lewrockwell.com.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Sterngard Friegen wrote:
SantorumGoogle It would be slaughtered in the general election and that would lead to a split in the Party. But, as I've said before, let's be sane. Rmoney will be the nominee. And that, too, should lead to a splintering.



Until last week, I believed Rmoney was guaranteed to be the nominee.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future, he is in serious trouble. Like, reeeally bad trouble. I think it's a 50-50 shot for him now. He best get his act together, now.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:44 pm 
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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:11 pm 
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MaineSkeptic wrote:
People on TV a night or two ago were talking about that Santorum Romney-as-gunslinger ad, and someone pointed to the fact that Santorum is associating himself with a visual of a spurting brown, viscous liquid.

Is someone really, really dumb or really, really evil?


Yes -- all of the above. :(( :(( :((

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Public Policy Polling is usually considered to be linked to the Democratic Party. Its polling results have been very good but not excellent since 2001.

PPP: Santorum polling better than Romney against Obama
Quote:
New polling by Public Policy Polling has for the first time a GOP candidate other than Mitt Romney faring better in a hypothetical matchup with Barack Obama.

Rick Santorum, riding the wave of a string of victories in Republican presidential contests last week, has for now the mantle of “most electable” Republican candidate, according to numbers released by PPP on Tuesday.

Santorum trails Obama in a head-to-head matchup 49 percent to 44 percent. Romney, long perceived to be the most electable GOP contender, trails Obama 49 percent to 42 percent.

Santorum may just be a blip. A few more crazy or hateful remarks could wipe him off the political charts. At the moment, however, he is alive and well and a serious threat.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:46 pm 
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BillTheCat wrote:
I really have to disagree that elevating Santorum to nominee is bad for us. Sorry, but IMO Obama would destroy him. He has no debate skills, little if any base overall, and his views will turn the majority off, including most women. I'm not scared of Santorum in the least, and don't get why anyone else would be. :|

I mean, the latest - he thinks the entire Protestant faith is not Christian. Yeh, that'll get votes.


What's bad is when a candidate wins the nomination, he then has a chance of winning. Sure, the odds are that Obama would destroy him, but anything could happen. Still, Santorum is not going to be the nominee. Won't happen. By convention time, Rmoney will probably have the delegates and Santorum will have conceded*. His running mate will probably somebody like T Paw. Maybe Rob Portman, but Rob says nonono right now. Mainstream Republican delegates will come to their senses and remember what happened with having a right wing nut job as the running mate.


*Every time you start to think Santorum is a real candidate, pinch yourself. He's not really running for President. He's running for higher speaking fees and book sales. He's got a 3 year old daughter who has a 1% chance of living to age 10. He's filling the family coffers for Bella.


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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:27 pm 
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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Redress Information & Analysis February 13, 2012, Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum’s plans for America, by Lawrence Davidson, is a comprehensive and devastating critique of what passes for ideas in the mind of Rick Santorum. He concludes:
Quote:
Rick Santorum is a religious ideologue. He wants to turn the US into a "faith-based" Christian country through the imposition of those "family values" he personally has decided are God-given. He believes that America’s founding fathers would agree because they were, supposedly, men of faith just like him. Quoting the Declaration of Independence to prove this point, Santorum reminds us that it says that people "are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights". From this he concludes that rights come from God and not from government. Government’s role is simply to implement and protect those divine rights.

The truth is that the man who penned the Declaration, Thomas Jefferson, was nothing like Rick Santorum. He wasn’t even a Christian. He was a Deist. Jefferson’s phrasing was meant to impress a wider world in an age when religion was interpreted in a more literal fashion than it is in today’s United States. Jefferson certainly did not mean for Americans to take the notion of God-given inalienable rights literally. After all, he was a slave holder.

The number of Americans who respond positively to Rick Santorum’s message is probably in the range of 20 per cent. In terms of the Republican Party, they probably represent about one-third of the membership. Being ideologically driven, these people are motivated to vote. And, that is significant in a nation where voting turnout is traditionally low. So, Rick Santorum is certainly representative of a politically active part of the US population – a dangerous, intolerant, noisy, in-your-face part. If we let him and his followers get their way, the result will be ever greater divisiveness and decline at home, and war abroad. That is a choice for the rest of us.

Before the 2010 elections, I was among those opining that there had not been a seismic shift in American politics from 2008, that the Tea Party was a loud, transient epiphenomenon. Then two things happened: confident Democrats did not go to the polls and some Democratic candidates were duds. I am not worried about the Democratic candidate for President being a dud, but I am deeply worried when someone says "Santorum cannot win."

I agree that Santorum is not running for president. He is running to become the American pope or maybe just the American Tomás de Torquemada.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:07 am 
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I keep reading "the mainstream GOP leaders won't allow this," and "the mainstream GOP leaders won't allow that". There was a day when they did rule the party. My own Uncle Bill was one of them.

Today I fear the mainstream GOP leaders are out of the loop. There are two Republican Parties right now, and the Republican Party of the Insane is in full ascendance. Look at Santorum's numbers, and then please explain to me why I should believe there's anybody left who pays attention to the mainstream GOP leaders.

I wish I understood what appeal Santorum suddenly has, after losing his own state by 700,000 votes in 2006, the largest losing margin for an incumbent Republican senator ever. I mean, I understand that Lincoln was defeated by Douglas in a Senate race before winning the presidency, but he didn't lose by 700,000 votes.

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 Post subject: GOP Candidates
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:39 am 
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Meh, Santorum's rise to the top, like Bachmann's, Perry's, Cain's, Gingrich-Tiffany's, is Republicans "spitting the dummy" about Rmoney being their only candidate who is even remotely electable in the general.


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