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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:29 pm 
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On April 5, 2011, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit (New Haven, CT) will hear the appeal by April Dawn Gallop of the dismissal of her suit against Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Richard Myers. It is a 9/11 Truther suit brought by a former employee of the Pentagon. 9/11 Truthers are in full-blown "any day now" mode, expecting that the Court of Appeals will reverse the March 10, 2010, dismissal of the case with prejudice. Judge Denny Chin ruled that the Complaint was frivolous and based on “cynical delusion and fantasy.” There are claims that Gallop's life has been threatened, and some Truthers are praying that she stays alive for the April 5 hearing.

The patterns of behavior of Birthers and 9/11 Truthers, and their misunderstandings of evidence and court procedure, have much in common. Indeed, at least some Birthers are also Truthers, and some of those people also believe in alien Overlords and UFO's. The suit has long been a topic of discussion on Godlike Productions

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:59 pm 
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The Truthers appear to have many of the same misunderstandings and forms of wishful thinking as their Birfer counterparts. But a lot of them have senses of humor and some ability at introspection. This may be because they are not all right wing nutjobs. Some of them are probably better-educated left wing nutjobs.

A misunderstanding that permeates all conspiracy fanatics is what will happen during an appeal. On both of the websites Tollie links to, above, the following misconception appears:
Quote:
Gallop’s case relies on virtually all forms of evidence admissible in court, but significantly, on published scientific evidence that residues of these explosives were found in the rubble after the attacks. In its totality the proffered case establishes that the government hypothesis – that the buildings collapsed due to fire in combination with the airplane impacts – is scientifically untenable.

In addition, Ms. Gallop will, through photographic and other physical evidence, as well as the testimony of a multitude of military and civilian survivors, demonstrate the impossibility of her having lived through the attack on the Pentagon if it had taken place as the government and the defendants claim.

That's not going to happen on appeal. It's a pleadings review. And it's not going to happen at trial, because the case is not going to be reversed by the Court of Appeals and sent back to the trial court.

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:08 pm 
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I think I have more contempt for truthers than for birthers. Even though I know of at least one dear friend of mine who is a truther.

Truthers defile the memory of our many dead. They accuse some of our victims of secretly being perpetrators. Or they deny that some of our victims even existed.

There is an excellent series of youtube videos created by an anti-truther, for those interested. One by one, the youtuber has deconstructed every single pile of logical poo created by truthers in individual videos. Here's just one example, which addresses the plaintiff's argument in this lawsuit that there was no evidence of plane wreckage in the Pentagon when it was hit while she was inside.

Note that even this category of the truther argument is broken down into several subsets of arguments they raise as they change their goalposts, just like birthers do. This one video responds to the sub-argument within the larger no-plane-in-the-Pentagon argument that addresses what eyewitnesses reported seeing that day:


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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:40 pm 
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Meh, I don't know if I would classify one as worse than the other. At the heart of birfism is racism, which is a terrible stain on this country. But I'd agree with you that truthers are vile and contemptible people.

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:51 pm 
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Highlands wrote:
Meh, I don't know if I would classify one as worse than the other. At the heart of birfism is racism, which is a terrible stain on this country. But I'd agree with you that truthers are vile and contemptible people.


You're right that there's no real sense in comparing.

The pain at stake when it comes to 9/11 is tremendous, that's all. I toured the WTC area in New York recently, and our group was led by two survivors. 10 years after 9/11, in front of a group of people just like many others he'd spoken to on many different days, the firefighter talking to us broke down in tears and could barely continue speaking. When I was chatting with him much later about why he was doing the tours etc., I delicately brought up whether he'd ever encountered truthers. He said he did, and they upset him, but they were always civil to him and would simply ask him some weird questions, and then leave him alone. They wouldn't argue with him. I thought to myself, "No, of course not, because they don't dare."

The thing is, Barack Obama can mock and laugh at birtherism, even though he's the target. So can we. But the targets of 9/11 are ordinary people that you can go out on the street and talk to right now, and for them this is no laughing matter.

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:02 pm 
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poutine wrote:
... But the targets of 9/11 are ordinary people that you can go out on the street and talk to right now, and for them this is no laughing matter.

Bill Clinton's "How dare you!" remark has always seemed the right one for Truthers. While some Birfers dabble in wild conspiracy theories, including that of shape-shifting alien Overlords, many of them claim just to believe that the President is an ineligible fraud. Truthers, on the other hand, have to believe that large segments of the U.S. government were in on a conspiracy to murder thousands of Americans. Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Myers are named in this particular suit, but their "literature" also accuses the U.S. Air Force, NORAD, FAA, NYPD, George H. W. Bush, and the Queen of England. The Truthers' conspiracy is enormous compared to that postulated by the usual Birfer. In fact, I think that many Birfers (including Orly) have no real doubts about the President's eligibility to serve; their opposition to him is racist and political, not Constitutional. Birfism is an "any-shot-in-the-dark" tactic to disable the President. They would be fighting Obama if both his parents had been grandchildren of slaves born on Mississippi soil and the future President had been born in the University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson, MS.

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:26 pm 
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poutine wrote:
There is an excellent series of youtube videos created by an anti-truther, for those interested. One by one, the youtuber has deconstructed every single pile of logical poo created by truthers in individual videos. Here's just one example, which addresses the plaintiff's argument in this lawsuit that there was no evidence of plane wreckage in the Pentagon when it was hit while she was inside.

Note that even this category of the truther argument is broken down into several subsets of arguments they raise as they change their goalposts, just like birthers do. This one video responds to the sub-argument within the larger no-plane-in-the-Pentagon argument that addresses what eyewitnesses reported seeing that day:


Those are great -- thanks for posting. That's what we need to do for the birthers.

Birthers are laughable, incompetent, and somewhat pathetic. Truthers are so much worse they're not in the same sport, much less the same ballpark. I can't articulate how vile I find their theories.

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:32 pm 
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The thought patterns are the same. I've been playing with truthers for a long time.

Creationists think in the same sorts of ways. Creationism is the "conspiracy theory" of geology and biology.

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:47 pm 
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poutine wrote:
I think I have more contempt for truthers than for birthers. Even though I know of at least one dear friend of mine who is a truther.

Truthers defile the memory of our many dead.They accuse some of our victims of secretly being perpetrators. Or they deny that some of our victims even existed.


I knew one (British) victim very well. He lived in my house for something approaching a year.

He wasn't one of the victims accused of collusion (somehow 'in on it'; a 'disappeared to a new life' passenger on one of the hijacked planes) but if it had been any other day he could have been.

I can never quite work out which group - truthers and birthers - I loathe more, and I have thought about it a lot. :-? :(

The video was really good though. I hadn't seen it before.


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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:51 pm 
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I had two dear friends and former clients who lost a son in the Towers on 9-11. As angry as they were (they believed the U.S. coddling of Saudi Arabia was a primary reason for 911), they decided to do something positive to memorialize their son's short life (he was in his 20s). They established a foundation to provide medical care to impoverished children around the world. Today that foundation thrives.

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:31 am 
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poutine wrote:
When I was chatting with him much later about why he was doing the tours etc., I delicately brought up whether he'd ever encountered truthers. He said he did, and they upset him, but they were always civil to him and would simply ask him some weird questions, and then leave him alone. They wouldn't argue with him. I thought to myself, "No, of course not, because they don't dare."

The thing is, Barack Obama can mock and laugh at birtherism, even though he's the target. So can we. But the targets of 9/11 are ordinary people that you can go out on the street and talk to right now, and for them this is no laughing matter.


Do you think birfers would refrain from tormenting and harassing anyone related to the Obamas out of something at leat resembling a sense of decency, like the troofers apparently did? I don't think so. So far, they've harassed the parents of a dead infant, tried to punk Obama's grandmother with a faked audiotape, and they continually harass any random person who seems, to them, to get in their way.

As vile as the bogus theories of the troofers are, I can't think of anything at the level of repulsiveness and personal harassment of innocent victims that I see from birfers on a daily basis. Don't get me wrong. Troofer theories are at least as disgusting as birfer theories, and arguably more disgusting. I can't say the same for the people who hold them, though, at least not all or even most of them. Of course, the most disgusting of all are the dual birf/troofers like Berg.

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:49 pm 
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Birfer-ism and twoofer-ism are all part of the same breed - weak-minded, gullible people willing to believe whatever story they want to hear to justify their own prejudices or political beliefs, no matter how outrageous or improbable.

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:32 am 
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The "truther" nutz are out in full force at drkate's

heather sez Flight 93 never left the airport and all the passengers are... somewhere.

Quote:
heather September 10, 2011 at 3:31 pm

Dr Kate–excellent video! I posted here about 2yrs ago a video that flight 93 with the same flight tail #s was seen in Ohio–that day, pictures showing the passengers being removed at the airport and walked into a building away from the plane–never to be seen or heard from again.

At that time were these passengers given a new identity and are they under govt protection to this day? I often wonder if these passengers have been re-programed to a totally different life….never to know who they really are. Could be my conspiracy theory, but where are they when they were seen getting off that plane at the airport and transported away. That flight 93 never left the airport. I will once again try and locate that video and IF I am able to find it I will repost.


Not to be outdone by Heather, "JJ" chimes in...

Quote:
JJ September 10, 2011 at 7:20 pm

heather—this will really upset you and the readers here…….I have spent several weeks researching the murders of those passengers during one winter with bad weather here.
This is the only explanation that makes sense…and your video would confirm it.
Okay—4 planes???
3 planes were routed to a non-descript airport where all employees there told threat approaching and leave IMMEDIATELY.
All plane passengers of the 3 planes told the country was under attack. One passenger group escorted to east wing….one to west wing…one to interview room…never seeing each other.
Plane 4 is shuttled to loading area of that airport.
After considerable time, the three plane’s passengers were
told they would be flown to a safe haven…first group is escorted to join passengers on plane 4….second group is escorted to join passengers on plane 4….third group is escorted to join passengers on plane 4.
One snag….a stray plane was grounded there…passengers left on plane for hours…one lady saw one plane’s passengers escorted to one of the holding areas.
This lady months later figured it all out with the things being told not jiving with what she saw…which was much. If there was a threat in the sky–if there were attacks taking place right at that time…..why was that plane she saw allowed to leave that airport when they had just been grounded???

Fourth plane??? Pennsylvania…[highlight]missile took it out.[/highlight]

This was planned by evil ..this was planned far in advance…this was planned by CIA, or FBI, Military, or all.

[highlight]This is the only thing that makes sense[/highlight]. :lol: No escapes…no communication leaks. No loose ends.


And let's not forget "Drew."

Quote:
Drew September 10, 2011 at 7:57 pm

One “Flight 93″ theory: — Some claim that because all four “hijacked” planes each had unusually low numbers of passengers, that the four planes were each flown to one location — (while using specially prepared planes to crash into the “official” targets) — and then all the passengers were placed together on a different plane, that was relabeled “Flight 93″ — the plane that did crash into the ground in Pennsylvania.

[highlight]The planes which hit the WTC towers were high-speed, windowless, military fuel tankers, and the Pentagon was hit by something smaller than a full-sized passenger plane[/highlight]… Yet all passengers on the four planes “disappeared”, never to be seen again — whereas seven or eight of the alleged 19 “middle eastern” hijackers (patsies) later announced they are still very much alive and well, and that their I.D.’s had been stolen prior to Sep. 11, 2001.


Mixed in with all the 9/11 Flight 93 discussion, Kerchner is whining about the Washington Times article recently published, they are still searching for the non-existent video where Alan Keyes tells Obama he's not nbc, etc.

](*,)

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:49 am 
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In case anyone missed this show

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/rcr/2011/0 ... heck-radio

Jonathan Kay (Among the Truthers) was a fascinating guest. I highly recommend his book.


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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:54 am 
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Emma wrote:
In case anyone missed this show

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/rcr/2011/0 ... heck-radio

Jonathan Kay (Among the Truthers) was a fascinating guest. I highly recommend his book.



It should be required reading in order to get your Obot license. It seems that the Birfer tree has it's roots deep into Truther dirt fed by the waters of DeNile... :- :- :-

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:11 am 
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SuEdB wrote:
Emma wrote:
In case anyone missed this show

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/rcr/2011/0 ... heck-radio

Jonathan Kay (Among the Truthers) was a fascinating guest. I highly recommend his book.



It should be required reading in order to get your Obot license. It seems that the Birfer tree has it's roots deep into Truther dirt fed by the waters of DeNile... :- :- :-

The one thing that remains contant with troothers, birfers, or any conspiracy theorist is that whenever evidence is presented that contradicts their beliefs, they simply move the goalposts and construct an ever-widening conspiracy with an ever-increasing number of people who are involved.

Rational, normal people look at the outrageous claims of the birfers and realize that the sheer number of officials and agencies required to carry out such a conspiracy in and of itself proves it false.

Conspiracists see it as evidence that the issue is much bigger and runs deeper than even they suspected.

As far as the book, it was a great read although there were a few passages that made me a bit uncomfortable. I want to read it again, just to be sure I wasn't misinterpreting what the author intended.


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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:14 am 
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Emma,

That observation really does ring true when you take into account the huge amount of grifting going on. Without the grift and the $$$$$ - these things would die a deserved death...

(not a death threat)

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:28 pm 
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Looks like Daryn Moran is a truther as well. (From his twitter feed)

Quote:
"Daryn J. Moran
Why did 9/11 look and sound like demolitions? The molten steel, chemical reaction, thermite?? the deaths of witnesses.??
23 hours ago"

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:34 pm 
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Honestly, after looking back at everything that happened in that eight year term, I find it amusing that there are people who still think the Bush Administration was competent enough to pull off a plan that was so sophisticated. ?(

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Personally I find the whole "passengers were escorted off the planes" and mumble mumble military tanker planes, to be, well, kinda stupid. The troofers allege that the government murdered close to 3000 people in cold blood. If that's the case, then I see no reason to engage in an elaborate hoax that involves the passengers being in on it. People willing to murder 3 000 innocents at the towers and the Pentagon are surely not going to have any qualms about killing the passengers.

Of course, in my grand Al Qaeda did it conspiracy theory, in which a carefully planned operation exploited holes in US security using fairly low-tech means succeeded probably even beyond Osama bin Laden's wildest expectations, the people there didn't have any qualms either.

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:13 am 
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Quote:
I can't think of anything at the level of repulsiveness and personal harassment of innocent victims that I see from birfers on a daily basis


Oh, there are truthers who engage in this sort of asshattery as well. They have gone after a number of "claimed victims' families" and some eyewitnesses with accusations of being "in on it".

The "no-planers" are particularly nasty (this species of 9/11 truther denies that airplanes were involved in the events of 9/11).

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:14 pm 
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While I (usually) do not approve of violence, this is one of my favorite rejoinders to an idiot conspiracy theorist.


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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:51 pm 
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Offtopic :
Not to hijack the thread - It is kinda on topic - Conspiracies and the True Believers...



SOMEONE messed up the Moon and didn't clean up after themselves... :o :o :oops:


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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:42 pm 
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Offtopic :
SuEdB wrote:
Not to hijack the thread - It is kinda on topic - Conspiracies and the True Believers...



SOMEONE messed up the Moon and didn't clean up after themselves... :o :o :oops:


So you mean to say those bastards are so insidious that they even FORGED THE MOON ITSELF to fake the Moon Landings? I am OUTRAGED that when I look up at the sky to see the Moon, I'm looking at a BLATANT FORGERY!

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 Post subject: 9/11 Truthers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:22 pm 
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Offtopic :
There's a guy on one forum in which I participate who holds that not only was the moon landing faked, but the moon itself is an alien spacecraft which is used to enforce an interstellar quarantine of the human race.

He's pretty good, and has a huge supply of irrefutable evidence, since pretty much anything confirms his hypothesis.

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