Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#276

Post by Maybenaut » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:09 pm

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Maybenaut wrote:
Orlylicious wrote:That she didn't beg for a plea deal immediately and watched him testify totally contrary to what she heard from the official people involved is, at best, shameful.
How do you know she didn't beg for a plea deal? In any event, Whether TT was going to plead guilty or not was not her decision, it was his. And it is not terribly unusual for a defendant to offer contrary factual evidence.

I think there are a lot of places in IG's handling of this case in which to find fault, but not this.
That's assuming that she was actually in control of things, something at this point I'm not willing to do. If she were, then i would agree with you, I just don't think she was.

Dr Blue, I agree, I left out the really more than obvious harassment factor in the depos, and I really can see TT's hand in that, but otherwise I see it as an effort in wasted time, and hopefully lots of someone's money.
I've represented people who refuse to plead guilty. It's not fun.



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#277

Post by Notorial Dissent » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:25 pm

I don't think there was EVER any likelihood of TT pleading guilty even to get plea deal, which may well have been what ended his first relationship with a lawyer who MAY have actually tried to do what was right for his client. He was/is convinced that he is right so that just wasn't likely.


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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#278

Post by Paul Lentz » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:18 pm

Mikedunford wrote:I'm sure it's an old saw. And I'm sure he's said the same thing 1000 times. But as Dan pointed out, it's a new audience. And I definitely wouldn't want to underestimate the impact of a moment of self-deprecation and humility on a new audience.

And especially not when the humility and self-deprecation stands in stark contrast to the defense.
Edit: fixed spelling
This. There's an old saying: "It's a cliche for a reason." And this "three arguments" old saw is an old saw for a reason...juries (and especially rural, Southern juries) relate to it. They see the almighty lawyer as human, humble and relatable. All of us, in a variety of situations (an argument with our wives, or a coworker, or a buddy) have looked back and said to ourselves, "Damn, I wish I woulda said..." To have a State Attorney (a big deal no matter where you go in Florida) from the big city (of Tallahassee--it's a very big city for the folks in Dixie County) say to them, in effect, 'I was brilliant when I practiced this in my bathroom mirror last night, but I'll probably say it different today in person and I'll probably (although SA Meggs would have said it, "prolly," just as he said "woulda" instead of "would have") screw something up today, and then tomorrow I'll think of all the really great things I could have ("coulda") said' humanizes him and makes him instantly more likeable and trustworthy. SA Meggs did an excellent job (although I don't think he was putting it on or it was at all contrived) of speaking in an accent, cadence, and--if you will--language that the jury would find comfortable and immediately understandable....it was exactly how any one of them might speak. By contrast, Garcia...didn't.


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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#279

Post by Paul Lentz » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:27 pm

Notorial Dissent wrote:I don't think there was EVER any likelihood of TT pleading guilty even to get plea deal, which may well have been what ended his first relationship with a lawyer who MAY have actually tried to do what was right for his client. He was/is convinced that he is right so that just wasn't likely.
I don't know, obviously, but I personally think it's very likely that Trussell/Inger tried to get a plea deal, but on their terms, such as pleading guilty to a single charge, reduced to a misdemeanor, and sentenced to time served (the 22 aggregate days he spent in jail). Something absolutely ludicrous, considering the obvious case the State had against Trussell on the multiple, 3rd degree felony, charges. I have no problem at all imagining Trussell/Inger approaching SA Meggs with such a deal, and actually believing they might get it (plus attorney's fees, expenses, an apology and a pony).

And, if an approach such as that happened, I also have no problem imagining SA Meggs laughing his ass off as he turned it down.


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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#280

Post by Orlylicious » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:43 am

Maybenaut, I totally take your point and you're right, maybe she tried. But this plane was so obviously crashing into the mountain. I remember Paul saying a plea deal could happen anytime, even during the trial... but in chambers each day, there was never any mention of it. Would that only be in papers?



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#281

Post by RTH10260 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:37 am

Paul Lentz wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:I'm sure it's an old saw. And I'm sure he's said the same thing 1000 times. But as Dan pointed out, it's a new audience. And I definitely wouldn't want to underestimate the impact of a moment of self-deprecation and humility on a new audience.

And especially not when the humility and self-deprecation stands in stark contrast to the defense.
Edit: fixed spelling
This. There's an old saying: "It's a cliche for a reason." And this "three arguments" old saw is an old saw for a reason...juries (and especially rural, Southern juries) relate to it. They see the almighty lawyer as human, humble and relatable. All of us, in a variety of situations (an argument with our wives, or a coworker, or a buddy) have looked back and said to ourselves, "Damn, I wish I woulda said..." To have a State Attorney (a big deal no matter where you go in Florida) from the big city (of Tallahassee--it's a very big city for the folks in Dixie County) say to them, in effect, 'I was brilliant when I practiced this in my bathroom mirror last night, but I'll probably say it different today in person and I'll probably (although SA Meggs would have said it, "prolly," just as he said "woulda" instead of "would have") screw something up today, and then tomorrow I'll think of all the really great things I could have ("coulda") said' humanizes him and makes him instantly more likeable and trustworthy. SA Meggs did an excellent job (although I don't think he was putting it on or it was at all contrived) of speaking in an accent, cadence, and--if you will--language that the jury would find comfortable and immediately understandable....it was exactly how any one of them might speak. By contrast, Garcia...didn't.
To say the least, I as an outsider was totally shocked when she started off with "you guys", and I seem to have seen one female juror in the video. Plus she didn't even take the clue from Mr Meggs to thank them for spending time on jury duty.



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#282

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:49 am

RTH10260 wrote:To say the least, I as an outsider was totally shocked when she started off with "you guys", and I seem to have seen one female juror in the video. Plus she didn't even take the clue from Mr Meggs to thank them for spending time on jury duty.
"You guys" is actually an acceptable, gender-neutral second person plural form of address. In New York. In informal situations. And there are some parts of Florida that have become a bit New York-like, but those parts of Florida are all quite a bit down the peninsula. Dixie County is, as its name suggests, not in one of the NYish parts of Florida. "Y'all" (or maybe "all y'all") is the only acceptable form.

I think Garcia did actually thank the jury at one point. But not as repeatedly or profusely as Mr. Meggs did. And, of course, she couldn't thank them on behalf of the State of Florida the way he could (and did).


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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#283

Post by RTH10260 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:36 am

Mikedunford wrote:
RTH10260 wrote:To say the least, I as an outsider was totally shocked when she started off with "you guys", and I seem to have seen one female juror in the video. Plus she didn't even take the clue from Mr Meggs to thank them for spending time on jury duty.
"You guys" is actually an acceptable, gender-neutral second person plural form of address. In New York. In informal situations. And there are some parts of Florida that have become a bit New York-like, but those parts of Florida are all quite a bit down the peninsula. Dixie County is, as its name suggests, not in one of the NYish parts of Florida. "Y'all" (or maybe "all y'all") is the only acceptable form.
Thanks for the deeper look at the usage of American English vernacular ;)
I think Garcia did actually thank the jury at one point. But not as repeatedly or profusely as Mr. Meggs did. And, of course, she couldn't thank them on behalf of the State of Florida the way he could (and did).
She had the option of thanking the jurors on behalf of TTs "We The People" :) :twisted:



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#284

Post by Maybenaut » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:39 am

Orlylicious wrote:Maybenaut, I totally take your point and you're right, maybe she tried. But this plane was so obviously crashing into the mountain. I remember Paul saying a plea deal could happen anytime, even during the trial... but in chambers each day, there was never any mention of it. Would that only be in papers?
Plea negotiations are all behind the scenes. You won't see it in the actual trial -- either in the papers or during the proceedings -- until it's a done deal. You can see how that plays out in the Bundy trials. The first we hear of it is through a notice of a change of plea.



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#285

Post by mimi » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:18 am

I saw this come down twitter last night. I didn't watch it and wont. I don't watch videos in summer cuz rural internet is terrible. :evil: But I did want to send it to IG. :P

Judge Dillard is Vice Chief Judge, Court of Appeals of Georgia.

David Lat is Lawyer turned writer, editor, and speaker. Founder, Above The Law (@ATLblog) and Underneath Their Robes. Author, Supreme Ambitions: A Novel (@SCOTUSambitions).\

Judge Dillard ‏@JudgeDillard 11h11 hours ago Georgia, USA

A while back, @DavidLat and I did a podcast on courtroom etiquette with @JoshuaLenon, which you can listen to here:
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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#286

Post by Dr. Blue » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:27 am

Mikedunford wrote:
RTH10260 wrote:To say the least, I as an outsider was totally shocked when she started off with "you guys", and I seem to have seen one female juror in the video. Plus she didn't even take the clue from Mr Meggs to thank them for spending time on jury duty.
"You guys" is actually an acceptable, gender-neutral second person plural form of address. In New York. In informal situations. And there are some parts of Florida that have become a bit New York-like, but those parts of Florida are all quite a bit down the peninsula. Dixie County is, as its name suggests, not in one of the NYish parts of Florida.
Every time I see something like that, I think of that old Pace Picante Sauce commercial: "New York City!?!?!?!? Git a rope...."
"Y'all" (or maybe "all y'all") is the only acceptable form.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just no. That's almost, but not quite, as bad as seeing people faking a southern accent in a movie and using y'all to address one person. Damn yankees trying to talk southern.... grumble grumble grumble. :geezer: (Need me a geezer smilie with a proper southern seersucker and Atticus Finch glasses.... Y'all would understand then... :-) )



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#287

Post by Maybenaut » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:53 am

I grew up in Tennessee. "All y'all" was not another way of saying y'all; it was usually invoked only when the speaker was provoked. Having been raised in New Jersey my mother never said it, but I heard it pkenty of times from teachers or ine of the neighborhood mothers.



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#288

Post by June bug » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:57 am

Off Topic
Maybenaut wrote:I grew up in Tennessee. "All y'all" was not another way of saying y'all; it was usually invoked only when the speaker was provoked. Having been raised in New Jersey my mother never said it, but I heard it pkenty of times from teachers or ine of the neighborhood mothers.
Like using your child's middle name: "Catherine Anne!" :mrgreen:



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#289

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:57 am

Dr. Blue wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:or maybe "all y'all") is the only acceptable form.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just no. That's almost, but not quite, as bad as seeing people faking a southern accent in a movie and using y'all to address one person. Damn yankees trying to talk southern.... grumble grumble grumble. :geezer: (Need me a geezer smilie with a proper southern seersucker and Atticus Finch glasses.... Y'all would understand then... :-) )
I heard "all y'all" used quite a bit (mostly for emphasis) when I lived in the Panhandle and Lower Alabama.


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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#290

Post by Dr. Blue » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:06 am

Mikedunford wrote:
Dr. Blue wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:or maybe "all y'all") is the only acceptable form.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just no. That's almost, but not quite, as bad as seeing people faking a southern accent in a movie and using y'all to address one person. Damn yankees trying to talk southern.... grumble grumble grumble. :geezer: (Need me a geezer smilie with a proper southern seersucker and Atticus Finch glasses.... Y'all would understand then... :-) )
I heard "all y'all" used quite a bit (mostly for emphasis) when I lived in the Panhandle and Lower Alabama.
Mike: I think I knew at one time, but have forgotten your background - something Army related (seems like Schofield was mentioned once, and maybe the Lower Alabama bit is Fort Rucker? If so, then my wife's family may have had quite a few overlaps with you...

Anywho.... I've got to back off a little on my "no no no" I suppose. After reading Maybenaut's comment and thinking about it in a ticked off tone of voice, it does sound OK that way... :-) [Maybenaut: Dessert for you! How about a big slice of Pee-can Pie? :-) ]

And now I must stop talking about accents and other non-day 4 things, before Realist comes and gives me the big red exclamation point....



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#291

Post by Volkonski » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:24 am

Mikedunford wrote:
RTH10260 wrote:To say the least, I as an outsider was totally shocked when she started off with "you guys", and I seem to have seen one female juror in the video. Plus she didn't even take the clue from Mr Meggs to thank them for spending time on jury duty.
"You guys" is actually an acceptable, gender-neutral second person plural form of address. In New York. In informal situations. And there are some parts of Florida that have become a bit New York-like, but those parts of Florida are all quite a bit down the peninsula. Dixie County is, as its name suggests, not in one of the NYish parts of Florida. "Y'all" (or maybe "all y'all") is the only acceptable form.

I think Garcia did actually thank the jury at one point. But not as repeatedly or profusely as Mr. Meggs did. And, of course, she couldn't thank them on behalf of the State of Florida the way he could (and did).
In Brooklyn it is "youse guys". ;)


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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#292

Post by realist » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:29 am

Okay, y'all... :-D
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#293

Post by noblepa » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:00 am

Mikedunford wrote:
RTH10260 wrote:To say the least, I as an outsider was totally shocked when she started off with "you guys", and I seem to have seen one female juror in the video. Plus she didn't even take the clue from Mr Meggs to thank them for spending time on jury duty.
"You guys" is actually an acceptable, gender-neutral second person plural form of address. In New York. In informal situations. And there are some parts of Florida that have become a bit New York-like, but those parts of Florida are all quite a bit down the peninsula. Dixie County is, as its name suggests, not in one of the NYish parts of Florida. "Y'all" (or maybe "all y'all") is the only acceptable form.

I think Garcia did actually thank the jury at one point. But not as repeatedly or profusely as Mr. Meggs did. And, of course, she couldn't thank them on behalf of the State of Florida the way he could (and did).
My brother lives outside Orlando and used to be an Orlando cop. As he puts it "southern Florida is a northern state". Northern Florida, the panhandle region, is the deep south.



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#294

Post by Foggy » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:05 pm

Off Topic
There's a French term for that "I shoulda said," which is "L'esprit de escalier." Google it.


... and how does that make you feel?
What is it you are trying to say?
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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#295

Post by Turtle » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:31 pm

Paul Lentz wrote:
Notorial Dissent wrote:I don't think there was EVER any likelihood of TT pleading guilty even to get plea deal, which may well have been what ended his first relationship with a lawyer who MAY have actually tried to do what was right for his client. He was/is convinced that he is right so that just wasn't likely.
I don't know, obviously, but I personally think it's very likely that Trussell/Inger tried to get a plea deal, but on their terms, such as pleading guilty to a single charge, reduced to a misdemeanor, and sentenced to time served (the 22 aggregate days he spent in jail). Something absolutely ludicrous, considering the obvious case the State had against Trussell on the multiple, 3rd degree felony, charges. I have no problem at all imagining Trussell/Inger approaching SA Meggs with such a deal, and actually believing they might get it (plus attorney's fees, expenses, an apology and a pony).

And, if an approach such as that happened, I also have no problem imagining SA Meggs laughing his ass off as he turned it down.
Do they allow the Alford plea in FL? I could have seen Terry go for something like that if they also reduced the charges and kept him out of jail.



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#296

Post by rpenner » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:37 pm

Mikedunford wrote:"You guys" is actually an acceptable, gender-neutral second person plural form of address. In New York. In informal situations.
Paradoxically, "you people" is a more offensive form of address, because it has too commonly been used to address an outgroup in prejudiced terms, as in "you people don't know when to shut up."



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#297

Post by woodworker » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:45 pm

Paul Lentz wrote:
Notorial Dissent wrote:I don't think there was EVER any likelihood of TT pleading guilty even to get plea deal, which may well have been what ended his first relationship with a lawyer who MAY have actually tried to do what was right for his client. He was/is convinced that he is right so that just wasn't likely.
I don't know, obviously, but I personally think it's very likely that Trussell/Inger tried to get a plea deal, but on their terms, such as pleading guilty to a single charge, reduced to a misdemeanor, and sentenced to time served (the 22 aggregate days he spent in jail). Something absolutely ludicrous, considering the obvious case the State had against Trussell on the multiple, 3rd degree felony, charges. I have no problem at all imagining Trussell/Inger approaching SA Meggs with such a deal, and actually believing they might get it (plus attorney's fees, expenses, an apology and a pony).

And, if an approach such as that happened, I also have no problem imagining SA Meggs laughing his ass off as he turned it down.

Not that I don't believe you Paul, but this time I must also disagree. I think, in TT's mind, a satisfactory plea deal would have had to have been one where he walks and the state apologizes to him. I know that sounds crazy and that i must be saying that sarcastically, but I am not. TT BELIEVED and IMHO he wanted the State to apologize and ask his forgiveness. When you listen to his interactions with Meggs, he is not upset because he can't explain away his actions, he is upset because he is failing in bringing Meggs into the light. Despite TT's best efforts, Meggs can't seem to understand and that frustrates TT because he knows the TRUTH and can't understand why others can't see it.

ETA: I posted before I read the rest of your post Paul, so I think we are on the same page and mea culpa for writing before reading.


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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#298

Post by noblepa » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:55 pm

Dr. Blue wrote:
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just no. That's almost, but not quite, as bad as seeing people faking a southern accent in a movie and using y'all to address one person. Damn yankees trying to talk southern.... grumble grumble grumble. :geezer: (Need me a geezer smilie with a proper southern seersucker and Atticus Finch glasses.... Y'all would understand then... :-) )
I remember drving from my home in Ohio, to Hilton Head Island. We stopped at a Cracker Barrel restaurant, where they had a book for sale, called "How to talk Southern". In it, I distinctly remember the author saying that "y'all" was, in fact, singular. The plural form is "All y'all".

But than, I'm from Ohio. What do I know? :-D

I'm not going to seriously argue sourthern accents or coloquialisms with a true southerner.



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#299

Post by magdalen77 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:05 pm

Slim Cognito wrote:
Dr. Blue wrote:
Mikedunford wrote: :snippity:
Third, there was the local environment and politics. I suspect that anyone on the jury who heard of common core had heard it referred to as "commie core" at least once or twice before the trial. I wouldn't be shocked if some of the jurors had referred to it as such. Nor would I be shocked if Trump wins Dixie County in November. A more aggressive prosecution would have inevitably (though Garcia's attempts at cross) lead to a more politicized trial. Mr. Meggs kept the trial focused on Trussell and Trussell's antics only. And I think that helped a lot, too.
I'd say this is almost a certainty. This may have been posted before (lots of discussion here, lots of posts under the bridge, but maybe a blind pig could rut something out....), but in the last election Romney won Dixie county by 53 percentage points (76% to 23%). There are parts of the county in which the anti-libruuuul sentiment is deeply ingrained, and Dixie County looks like one of those places....
Dixie County is Trump Central. Big yard signs everywhere.
I've only seen two in my old hometown in northcentral PA. I want to vandalize them, but I suspect that the people who have them are probably watching for that. And probably have guns.



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Re: Day 4 Videos FLORIDA v TRUSSELL 060916 - Incl Proffers, Closing Arguments, Jury Instructions. Inger Garcia Fails

#300

Post by realist » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:08 pm

realist wrote:Okay, y'all... :-D
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