Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

NMgirl
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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by NMgirl » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:42 pm

I'm playing catchup after an all-day meeting. Thanks to everybody for posting about the trial today. Great bedtime reading, I assure you. :thumbs: :bighug: :thumbs:

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by NMgirl » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:46 pm

Maxine's article about Cliven being denied release and the courtroom outburst by one of Cloven's daughters:

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... clive.html

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by pipistrelle » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:57 pm

NMgirl wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:46 pm
Maxine's article about Cliven being denied release and the courtroom outburst by one of Cloven's daughters:

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... clive.html
"I want to be a good father,'' he said. "This is punishment to them that they don't deserve, even if I deserve it.''
Admission of possible guilt? Should have thought of that sooner, cowboy.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by NMgirl » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:58 pm

The Shorter But Still Magnificent Maxine. Bottom to top.

Judge denies release for Ryan Payne: says he remains a danger to community,citing guilty plea in refuge case, Operation Mutual Defense

Testimony today that Ammon Bundy still owes $185,000 in legal fees from #oregonstandoff prosecution #BundyTrial

Court resumes at 1;30 pm

Prosecutor Scheiss of Attorney Hill:'I realize that Mr. Hill is a young lawyer,' eliciting audible growns in courtroom

Testy exchange between prosecutor Schiess &Ammon B's lawyer Dan Hill who objected to US not sharing Marshals report on AB's jail violations

Prosecution argued Cliven B doesn't respect federal court orders; Judge agreed, has incentive to flee, denied his release

Whipple on Cliven:'The only thing that is important to him is his family. He has no other place to go.'

Whipple on Cliven:'He refers to himself as an old cow,' considering loss of teeth, can't chew - lack of care

Cliven Bundy's lawyer had argued that the 71yrold's health is deteriorating, came to jail w/ 20 teeth; now has 10-15 left

ABundy:'I would do as I did before which is peacefully assemble.' Judge:abide by home detention? :'I'll give you my word I'll stay home.'

Scheiss asked Ammon what would he do if BLM came to roundup Bundy cattle while he was on release (1/2)


Prosecutor Schiess attempted to show that Ammon Bundy's professed principles would get in the way with his compliance, as seen in jail

Prosecutor Daniel Schiess:Ammon Bundy's motion for release is full of '1/2 truths' w/ 'plucked statements completely taken out of context.'

Ammon Bundy:'I give you my word to follow these orders,& I take that seriously. So my answer is equivocally yes.'

Asked if he would abide by GPS, Ammon said,'I won't like it but I will submit to it.'

Under questioning from lawyer and Judge, Ammon B said they had 'his word' he'd abide by pretrial conditions set for him

Older daughter:'Gloria Navarro, you are an evil, cold-hearted woman...You are a liar...I love you dad!' -escorted out by court security

When Cliven Bundy's release denied, his older daughter stood up in 3rd row of public gallery and yelled at Judge (1/2)

Lawyer has proposed he'd stay at a rental home in Las Vegas where a retired Metro PD officer lives

Ammon Bundy on stand for last 40 minutes, pledging he'd abide by conditions set for his release

Judge denied Cliven Bundy release, finding weight of evidence still strong still risk of flight considering facing >80 yrs if convicted

Among the exhibits submitted to Judge in Ammon Bundy's motion for release are handwritten notes from his children

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by NMgirl » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:10 pm

Tweets from Tay Wiles, High Country News.

Tears shed in in the courtroom today when the judge announced she would not give Ryan Bundy pretrial release. The room was packed w/ family, friends, supporters. #BundyTrial defendants have been custody for the better part of 2 years.

Ryan Bundy spoke in court today about treatment in jail: "Being pushed around and told what to do like I'm a dog, an animal, is just egregious." He added "I appreciate the duty the marshals have to do... I'm willing to work with them." #BundyTrial

A prosecutor said marshals provided a report today indicating Ryan Bundy had 12 violations related to "failure to follow verbal or posted rules or orders" in detention between Mar. & Aug. this year, which contributed to judge's decision not to allow pretrial release. #BundyTrial

Ryan Bundy denied pretrial release. Judge: "I want to be able to provide the opportunity but the facts just don't permit it." She said there's a decades "pattern of noncompliance," including once refusing to pay entrance fees at @ZionNPS, fleeing cops in his vehicle. #BundyTrial

Judge on Cliven Bundy’s request for pretrial release: he has had “body guards willing to confront law enforcement on his behalf,” and has defied court orders for more than 20 years (re: trespass grazing on public land). #bundytrial

Judge denied requests to release C.Bundy before trial. His attorney said his health has deteriorated, had several teeth pulled in detention, was not a threat to the community. A family member yelled “you are an evil cold hearted woman” to judge before escorted out by marshals.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by NMgirl » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:25 pm

Ammo's Bid for Freedom:
Ammo Detention Motion.pdf
Daniel Hill quotes Obama. That will be popular with the Poot community. :sarcasm:
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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by NMgirl » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:57 pm

Max is tweeting from the airport, as she heads back home to Portland.
Prosecutor said Bundys recruited Millers in 4/2014-'they spun 'em up,' b/f Millers killed 2 cops. Defense called connection offensive
There doesn't seem to be a tweet thread here. Does anybody know if Navarro has decided on the admissibility of the Miller killings? I'm a little behind on document reading.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by pipistrelle » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:00 pm

First, I do think prisoners should get proper health and dental care. But what I can't understand is how they came up with a range for how many teeth Cliven has left. 10 to 15? Can't they count? Doesn't he know how many were pulled/fell out?

I would not be surprised if he's a diabetic. All the Bundy men have that tell-tale gut, even the youngster.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by NMgirl » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:21 pm

Your PootVid of the day, starring Lisa Bundy. In this youtube, you will get more glimpses than you need of life in the Lisa Bundy menage. Diapers! Laughter! Tears! Prayers! Diapers! And lots of blah, blah blah.


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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by pipistrelle » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:23 pm

NMgirl wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:21 pm
Your PootVid of the day, starring Lisa Bundy. In this youtube, you will get more glimpses than you need of life in the Lisa Bundy menage. Diapers! Laughter! Tears! Prayers! Diapers! And lots of blah, blah blah.

Diapers? Ammon's been locked away for enough time she shouldn't have anybody in diapers.
Edit: I'm no expert.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by maydijo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:27 pm

pipistrelle wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:00 pm
First, I do think prisoners should get proper health and dental care. But what I can't understand is how they came up with a range for how many teeth Cliven has left. 10 to 15? Can't they count? Doesn't he know how many were pulled/fell out?

I would not be surprised if he's a diabetic. All the Bundy men have that tell-tale gut, even the youngster.
IIRC, the youngest son Arden isn't Cliven's biological son, but the biological son of his first wife (mama to Ammon, Ryan, and I forget what other ones, but I want to say Mel and Dave too) and her partner. The story I remember is that Cliven's ex was messed up with drugs and asked Cliven and Carol to raise Arden.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by NMgirl » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:55 pm

NMgirl wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:57 pm
Max is tweeting from the airport, as she heads back home to Portland.
Prosecutor said Bundys recruited Millers in 4/2014-'they spun 'em up,' b/f Millers killed 2 cops. Defense called connection offensive
There doesn't seem to be a tweet thread here. Does anybody know if Navarro has decided on the admissibility of the Miller killings? I'm a little behind on document reading.
I'm going to answer my own question here. In Navarro's Order (Doc 2771), evidence about the Miller connection may be admissible but circumstances that would justify admission as evidence may be narrow.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by scirreeve » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:38 am

Klayman on behalf of Cliven is suing everyone.

Press Release:
http://www.larryklayman.com/article171110.php

154 page suit
http://www.larryklayman.com/pdf/171110- ... plaint.pdf

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by Grumpy Old Guy » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:41 am

scirreeve wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:38 am
Klayman on behalf of Cliven is suing everyone.

Press Release:
http://www.larryklayman.com/article171110.php

154 page suit
http://www.larryklayman.com/pdf/171110- ... plaint.pdf
Klayman on behalf of Klayman, no one else!

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by Kendra » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:30 pm

https:// blameitonbealer.wordpress.com/2017/11/10/open-letter-to-lisa-bundy/

Remove spaces to go to link. Didn't want to direct traffic back here.
Open Letter to Lisa Bundy:

I watched your impassioned video update today, November 9, 2017. The one you made to let us all know how much you miss Ammon, what his chances are of pretrial release, etc.

What I couldn’t help but notice is that you made this video standing inside what can only be described as a rather spacious, nicely customized, walk-in closet. A closet that is crammed full of clothing, shoes, and loads of other things unseen stored away in those pretty little drawers.

For nearly two years the patriot community has come to your aid. It has sent funds by the thousands to your family, and specifically to Ammon for his legal defense. Yet your closet remains fully stocked and crammed full of STUFF. The mere fact that you have such a large closet some two years after he was initially incarcerated is a question that remains unanswered.

You see, any other American who has faced federal prosecution would have sold off everything they own – cars, homes, held yard sales, etc. They would have done anything and everything to raise the necessary funds to not only pay for their legal fees, but also to take care of their family. Not you.

For whatever reason, you seem to think that it is perfectly fine for men and women you don’t know – perfect strangers – to send their hard-earned income, their retirement money, their Social Security and Veterans benefits to YOU and Ammon.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by Kendra » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:17 am

https:// redoubtnews.com/2017/11/cliven-bundy-remain-jail/

The version of events from We Doubt It's News. Remove spaces in address above.
Whipple told the court of Bundy’s dental problems, noting that the 71-year-old has had to pull several of his own teeth in his attempts to stop infections. Dental care is minimal in the CCA detention center.
Has anyone else reported he pulled his own teeth?
Cliven Bundy’s oldest daughter, Sharee Cox, was visibly upset during the hearing and was removed by the US Marshals for shaking her head in disbelief. The Marshals have banned her from the courtroom for the remainder of the trial. She did tell her father that she loved him as she was led out of the room.
Again, other reports are a wee bit different. Glad we had Maxine there.
Edit: Add screenshot of comment
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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by NMgirl » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:39 am

Friday Night-ish Document Dump

11/06/2017-- 2816-- TRANSCRIPT of Proceedings, 2810 Jury Trial, Day 4 [as to Cliven D. Bundy, Ryan C. Bundy, Ammon E. Bundy, Ryan W. Payne] held on 11/2/2017 before Chief Judge Gloria M. Navarro. Court Reporter: Felicia Zabin, FZ@nvd.uscourts.gov. Any Redaction Request is due by 11/27/2017. Redacted Transcript Deadline is set for 12/7/2017. Release of the Transcript Restriction is set for 2/4/2018. Before release date, the transcript may be viewed at the court public terminal or purchased through the Court Reporter. Transcript Order form is available on court website. After that date, the transcript may be obtained from the Court Reporter or PACER. (FRZ) (Entered: 11/06/2017)

11/06/2017-- 2818-- TRANSCRIPT of Proceedings, 2796 Jury Trial Day 1, as to Cliven D. Bundy, Ryan C. Bundy, Ammon E. Bundy, Ryan W. Payne held on 10/30/2017 before Chief Judge Gloria M. Navarro. Court Reporter: Heather Newman, HN@nvd.uscourts.gov.. Any Redaction Request is due by 11/27/2017. Redacted Transcript Deadline is set for 12/7/2017. Release of the Transcript Restriction is set for 2/4/2018. Before release date, the transcript may be viewed at the court public terminal or purchased through the Court Reporter. Transcript Order form is available on court website. After that date it may be obtained through the Court Reporter or PACER. (HKN) Modified on 11/6/2017 (HKN). (Entered: 11/06/2017)

11/06/2017-- 2819-- TRANSCRIPT of Proceedings, 2798 Jury Trial, DAY 2,,, as to Cliven D. Bundy, Ryan C. Bundy, Ammon E. Bundy, Ryan W. Payne held on October 31, 2017 before Chief Judge Gloria M. Navarro. Court Reporter: Kathy Eismann, KE@nvd.uscourts.gov. Any Redaction Request is due by 11/27/2017. Redacted Transcript Deadline is set for 12/7/2017. Release of the Transcript Restriction is set for 2/4/2018. Before release date, the transcript may be viewed at the court public terminal or purchased through the reporter. Transcript Order form is available on court website. After that date it may be obtained through the court reporter or PACER. (KE) (Entered: 11/06/2017)

11/06/2017-- 2824-- ORDER Temporarily Unsealing Notes re 2768 Evidentiary Hearing held on 10/23/2017 as to Cliven D. Bundy, Ryan C. Bundy, Ammon E. Bundy, and Ryan W. Payne. Signed by Chief Judge Gloria M. Navarro on 11/6/17. (Copies have been distributed pursuant to the NEF - MMM) (Entered: 11/06/2017)

11/06/2017-- 2826-- NOTICE of Expert Witness, filed by Cliven D. Bundy. (Whipple, Bret) (Entered: 11/06/2017

11/06/2017-- 2827-- MOTION for reconsideration of Mr. Larry Klayman's Application to Practice Pro Hac Vice as Directed by Cliven Bundy by Cliven D. Bundy. Responses due by 11/20/2017. (Whipple, Bret) (Entered: 11/06/2017)

11/06/2017-- 2828-- MOTION to Dismiss for Discovery Misconduct, filed by Cliven D. Bundy. Responses due by 11/20/2017. (Whipple, Bret) (Entered: 11/06/2017)

11/07/2017-- 2829-- ORDER Denying Defendant's 2624 Motion for Chief Judge Gloria Navarro to Recuse Herself as to Ryan C. Bundy (2). Signed by Chief Judge Gloria M. Navarro on 11/7/17. (Copies have been distributed pursuant to the NEF - SLD) (Entered: 11/07/2017)

11/07/2017-- 2832-- MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS - Jury Trial (Day 5) as to Cliven D. Bundy, Ryan C. Bundy, Ammon E. Bundy, Ryan W. Payne held on 11/7/2017 before Chief Judge Gloria M. Navarro. Crtrm Administrator: Aaron Blazevich; AUSA: Steven Myhre, Nadia Ahmed and Daniel Schiess with FBI Agents Joel Willis, Sharon Gavin and Mike Abercrombie; Def Counsel: Bret Whipple with Legal Assistant Tatum Wehr, Maysoun Fletcher (Standby Counsel), Daniel Hill, Jay Morgan Philpot, Brenda Weksler and Ryan Norwood; Court Reporter/Recorder: Kathy Eismann; Time of Hearing: 8:50 a.m. - 10:35 a.m.; Courtroom: 7C;

JURY TRIAL (DAY 5). Defendants are present in custody. The Court and parties discuss various topics outside the presence of the jury. In regards to 2727 Motion to Dismiss, the responses will be due by 12:00 p.m. on 11/10/2017, replies will be due by 12:00 p.m. on 11/12/2017 and the hearing will be held on 11/13/2017 at 9:00 a.m. In regards to 2828 Motion to Dismiss, the hearing will be held on 11/8/2017 at 1:00 p.m. The Court will hold a detention hearing on 11/9/2017 at 9:30 a.m. Defendants are remanded to custody. Jury Trial continued to 11/14/2017 at 8:30 AM in LV Courtroom 7C before Chief Judge Gloria M. Navarro. (Copies have been distributed pursuant to the NEF - ASB) (Entered: 11/07/2017)

11/08/2017-- 2839-- TRANSCRIPT of Proceedings, 2832 Jury Trial, DAY 5,,,, as to Cliven D. Bundy, Ryan C. Bundy, Ammon E. Bundy, Ryan W. Payne held on November 7, 2017 before Chief Judge Gloria M. Navarro. Court Reporter: Kathy Eismann, KE@nvd.uscourts.gov. Any Redaction Request is due by 11/29/2017. Redacted Transcript Deadline is set for 12/9/2017. Release of the Transcript Restriction is set for 2/6/2018. Before release date, the transcript may be viewed at the court public terminal or purchased through the reporter. Transcript Order form is available on court website. After that date it may be obtained through the court reporter or PACER. (KE) (Entered: 11/08/2017)

11/08/2017-- 2840-- MOTION for Joinder to 2828 MOTION to Dismiss for Discovery Misconduct, filed by Ryan W. Payne. (Weksler, Brenda)Modified on 11/9/2017 to create docket entry relationship (TR). (Entered: 11/08/2017)

11/08/2017-- 2841-- MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS - Motion Hearing as to Cliven D. Bundy, Ryan C. Bundy, Ammon E. Bundy, Ryan W. Payne held on 11/8/2017 before Chief Judge Gloria M. Navarro. Crtrm Administrator: Aaron Blazevich; AUSA: Steven Myhre and Nadia Ahmed with FBI Agents Joel Willis and Sharon Gavin; Def Counsel: Bret Whipple with Legal Assistant Tatum Wehr, Maysoun Fletcher (Standby Counsel for Ryan Bundy), Daniel Hill, Jay Morgan Philpot, Brenda Weksler, and Ryan Norwood; Court Reporter/Recorder: Patty Ganci; Time of Hearing: 1:33 p.m. - 4:40 p.m.; Courtroom: 7C; Defendants are present in custody. The Court convenes. Arguments heard on the 2828 Motion to Dismiss. Motion to Dismiss (ECF No. 2828 ) is DENIED. Motions for Joinder filed by Jason Woods (ECF No. 2833 ), Melvin Bundy (ECF No. 2834 ), Joseph OShaughnessy (ECF No. 2835 ), David Bundy (ECF No. 2837 ) and Ryan Payne (ECF No. 2840 ) are GRANTED. Defense Witness: Arthur Scott Sessions.

The Court makes findings as stated on the record. The Court orders the Government to produce any of the following which may be in possession and control of the Government: the number of cameras directed toward the Bundy home, if any, with the location and dates of these cameras. The Government must also produce any recordings, within the Governments control,made by these cameras, including video recordings, notes or reports. The Government shall also provide any LPOP or FBI Surveillance Reports of the Bundy residence from March 1, 2014 through April 12, 2014. The Government may make redactions which may be required to remove unrelated information. The produced material may also be covered under a protective order. The Court further finds in camera review may be acceptable, should the Government request it. The deadline for the Government to produce this information is Saturday, November 11, 2017, by 12:00 p.m. If no material exists, the Government shall provide names of possible witnesses for the defense to call at trial. Defendants are remanded to custody. (Copies have been distributed pursuant to the NEF - ASB) (Entered: 11/08/2017)

11/08/2017-- 2842-- MOTION to Dismiss with Prejudice due to Collection of Privileged Attorney-Client Phone Calls (Expedited Treatment Requested), filed by Ryan W. Payne. Responses due by 11/22/2017. (Weksler, Brenda) (Entered: 11/08/2017)
11/09/2017 2843 MOTION for Review re 299 Order of Detention, filed by Ammon E. Bundy. (Hill, Daniel) Modified event to coincide with 18 USC 3415(b) on 11/9/2017 (TR). (Entered: 11/09/2017)

11/09/2017-- 2844-- TRANSCRIPT of Proceedings, 2804 Jury Trial, Day 3, as to Cliven D. Bundy, Ryan C. Bundy, Ammon E. Bundy, Ryan W. Payne held on 11/1/2017 before Chief Judge Gloria M. Navarro. Court Reporter: Patricia Ganci, PG@nvd.uscourts.gov. Any Redaction Request is due by 11/30/2017. Redacted Transcript Deadline is set for 12/10/2017. Release of the Transcript Restriction is set for 2/7/2018. Before release date, the transcript may be viewed at the court public terminal or purchased through the reporter. Transcript Order form is available on court website. After that date it may be obtained through the court reporter or PACER. (PG) (Entered: 11/09/2017)

Downloads and commentary after I've had more coffee.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by pipistrelle » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:48 am

Kendra wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:17 am
https:// redoubtnews.com/2017/11/cliven-bundy-remain-jail/

The version of events from We Doubt It's News. Remove spaces in address above.
Whipple told the court of Bundy’s dental problems, noting that the 71-year-old has had to pull several of his own teeth in his attempts to stop infections. Dental care is minimal in the CCA detention center.
Has anyone else reported he pulled his own teeth?
Cliven Bundy’s oldest daughter, Sharee Cox, was visibly upset during the hearing and was removed by the US Marshals for shaking her head in disbelief. The Marshals have banned her from the courtroom for the remainder of the trial. She did tell her father that she loved him as she was led out of the room.
Again, other reports are a wee bit different. Glad we had Maxine there.
Edit: Add screenshot of comment
It was reported his teeth "were pulled" vs. "he pulled." But then it was also reported Sharee was ejected for a verbal outburst vs. "shaking her head in disbelief."

Pro tip to the Redoubt "journalist": Reporters don't attribute emotions to simple gestures. The "in disbelief" would never be reported by a journalist, unless they were told explicitly by the person. "I shook my head in disbelief," the attendee said. Kind of calls into doubt all your "reporting." Well, that, and all the obvious lies.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by Kendra » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:15 am

And...how would Cliven get the tool he needed to pull the teeth in jail? Hmmm?

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by pipistrelle » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:54 am

Kendra wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:15 am
And...how would Cliven get the tool he needed to pull the teeth in jail? Hmmm?
Everyone his age knows it takes string and a doorknob. Oh, wait, he probably has neither.

I've had one tooth pulled (to make room in a crowded mouth). It had already had a root canal and broken partly off so it was pretty weak. And it still took effort and expertise to "pull" (it's rocked back and forth just like pulling up a tent stake). I think it'd be awfully hard to do without tools and a third hand with better leverage than yours have being where they are.

But then, unlike Ammon, I can't pop both my shoulders back in. The Bundys are special.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by Kendra » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:03 pm

pipistrelle wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:54 am
Kendra wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:15 am
And...how would Cliven get the tool he needed to pull the teeth in jail? Hmmm?
Everyone his age knows it takes string and a doorknob. Oh, wait, he probably has neither.

I've had one tooth pulled (to make room in a crowded mouth). It had already had a root canal and broken partly off so it was pretty weak. And it still took effort and expertise to "pull" (it's rocked back and forth just like pulling up a tent stake). I think it'd be awfully hard to do without tools and a third hand with better leverage than yours have being where they are.

But then, unlike Ammon, I can't pop both my shoulders back in. The Bundys are special.
Been a while, but I had some of the lower front teeth pulled years ago to make way for braces. I don't think I could have pulled them on my own...

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by Fiona » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:18 pm

So on the subject of dental care while in custody, here is what I can offer. At the county jail where I practice we have a dentist 1-2 days a week. The other jail in town has dental services two days per week. EVERYONE needs to see the dentist, primarily due to poor hygiene, lack of access ( it's expensive) and/ or drugs. They dentist will do fillings if they aren't complicated but the primary procedure is extractions. No roots canals, major restoration etc.

As far as possible dental infections go, I/ we take them very seriously due the potential for sepsis, especially If the lower molars are involved. The jail will not allow floss but my fellow nurses do instruct people on how to work with that limitation. If you have severe gum disease, we offer prescription mouth wash to prevent further gingival erosion. I think Cliven could suffer from that problem based on the poot reports and age.

I will say the CCA facility contracts the medical/ dental care out so there is a potential that the services there are not the community level of care we provide. My facility is an extension of the local health department.
That's probably more information than anyone cared to have about dental services in custody.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by pipistrelle » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:26 pm

Fiona wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:18 pm
I will say the CCA facility contracts the medical/ dental care out so there is a potential that the services there are not the community level of care we provide. My facility is an extension of the local health department.
That's probably more information than anyone cared to have about dental services in custody.
Not at all. I do want prisoners to be treated well, and it's unfortunate that pre-conviction incarceration means they can't get the kind of care they would from their own dentist (although in this case there's not much doubt Cliven is guilty). He had lost 10 teeth previously. That's why I wonder, with his fat around the middle, if he's not diabetic. And yes, people have died from infection in the mouth going to the heart.

Thanks for the insight.

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Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by Azastan » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:26 pm

Fiona wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:18 pm

That's probably more information than anyone cared to have about dental services in custody.
Actually, no, that is very interesting and thank you for the information.

NMgirl
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:02 am

Re: Bundy Ranch Trial #2--The Big One: Cliven, Ammon, cRyan, Ryan Payne, Pete Santilli

Post by NMgirl » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:53 pm

Azastan wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:26 pm
Fiona wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:18 pm

That's probably more information than anyone cared to have about dental services in custody.
Actually, no, that is very interesting and thank you for the information.
:thumbs:

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