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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:01 pm 
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Is David Farrar going to have a hard time letting Orly do the lawyering? This might be -xx


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:13 pm 
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Loren wrote:
thorswitch wrote:
If answering this openly would help Orly too much, please send me a PM - what is the "standard pretrial order" that he is suggesting be filed concurrently?


ORYR: David Farrar v. Barack Obama: First Georgia Ballot Access Challenge Filing Released


Thanks, Loren!

I have a hard time imagining Orly wrote that herself, except for the fact that there are a couple things about it that I found very confusing.

First, it says that these are the issues before the court:

Quote:
The issues for determination by the Court are as follows:

A. Is the candidate's proffered birth certificates, authentic state-issued documents that verify his actual, physical birth in Hawaii?
B. Is the candidate an Article II natural born citizen of the United States as established in US.Supreme Court case: Minor vs Happersett 1875 Page 88 U. S. 163
C. O.C.G.A. § 21-2-560 Making of False Statements Generally. Is the candidate's SocialSecurity number, authentic


Then it stipulates the following facts:

Quote:
A. Barack Obama Sr.'s date of birth was June 18, 1934
B. Barack Obama Sr. was the father of Barack Obama Jr.
C. Barack Obama Sr. was not a U.S. citizen
D. Barack Obama's letter to the DNC stating he meets all Constitutional requirements to takethe Oath of Office of the President of the United States


Then it gives a list that is supposed to be a list of ALL exhibits that are going to be presented:

Quote:
P-1. Office of Inspector General, Department of Health and Human Services, Birth Certificate Fraud Conclusions:
Birth Certificates Alone do not Provide Conclusive or Reliable Proof of Identity.

P-2.Barack-Hussein-Obama-Sr-Immigration-File
P-3The Honolulu Advertiser First Mention: “In November 2008, The Advertiser reported
that the first published mention of the future president appeared in a Sunday Advertiser birthannouncement that ran on Aug. 13, 1961: "Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 KalanianaoleHwy., son, Aug. 4." The identical announcement ran the following day in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin. Such vital statistics, however, were not sent to the newspapers by the general public butby the Health Department, which received the information directly from hospitals, Okubo said.Birth announcements from the public ran elsewhere in both papers and usually includedinformation such as the newborn's name, weight and time of birth


From the stipulated facts, it sounds like she's going pure Vattel on this, but her evidence doesn't include anything that would back up the Vattel interpretation. She wants to know if Obama's SSN is valid, but doesn't offer any evidence to indicate it might not be.

She quotes a lot of stuff about how the burden of proving that a person is qualified for an office is solely on the candidate, but since the only qualifications for the office are age, NBC-status and 14-years residency, shouldn't those be the ONLY factors he has to prove? There's no requirement for a valid BC or SSN, so shouldn't she have to provide some kind of evidence that there's a genuine reason to question them before Obama has to respond? Or am I missing something here?

Thanks!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:17 pm 
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The Chaleria has filed a typical BSC* pre-trial order. Since the pre-trial order supplants the pleadings, why does Typhoid Orly want/need to file an amended complaint? (For the answer, see below.)


* Bat shit crazy.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:20 pm 
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Haynes v. Wells may be an outlier. The dissenting opinion notes that:

Quote:
Normally, the person challenging an election has the burden of proof as to the allegations contained in the complaint.  Hendry v. Smith, 270 Ga. 17, 505 S.E.2d 216 (1998);  Walls v. Garrett, 247 Ga. 640(1), 277 S.E.2d 903 (1981).


Anyone have access to Westlaw to Shepardize this?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:21 pm 
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Georgia - Primary Ballot Challenge Re Obama - Pre-Trial Order ...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:21 pm 
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Did she file this? I thought it was something Farrar drafted.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:31 pm 
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GreatGrey wrote:
Uhhh, can someone tell me how Haynes v Wells, a case about a state election, applies to a Federal position? What are they gonna say, Obama hasn't been a Georgia resident for 2 years?


A couple of years ago, a US House candidate (Keith Gross) was challenged and removed from the ballot. The administrative law judge cited Haynes v. Wells in his decision, saying that the federal US House candidate had the burden of establishing his eligibility.

And that judge? Michael Malihi. The same judge as in this case.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:33 pm 
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thorswitch wrote:
I have a hard time imagining Orly wrote that herself, except for the fact that there are a couple things about it that I found very confusing.


Given that this appears on David's blog, and does NOT appear on Orly's, I think it's safe to say that he drafted this. Not her.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:33 pm 
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O/T

Looks like the plan to contest the ballot in all 50 states has hit a bump in the road.


Quote:
—– Original Message —–

From: Ard, Mark
To: jjmertz48@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 9:14 AM
Subject: FW: Status of barack Obama on Florida Ballot ?????????
Dear Mr. Mertz –
Your e-mail to Secretary of State Kurt S. Browning, has been forwarded to the Division of Elections for response.
There are no statutory provisions or rules in Florida regarding challenging candidates’ names on ballots before an election occurs. Because no established procedures exist, the only recourse one has before the election is to institute a legal action to have the candidate removed from the ballot. Typically, such legal actions are brought in the circuit court as a declaratory judgment action seeking the court to declare the candidate ineligible to run for the office. After an election, section 102.168, Florida Statutes, provides that any unsuccessful candidate for the office being sought, any voter qualified to vote in the election, or any taxpayer may file an election contest in the circuit court based upon the successful candidate’s ineligibility of the office sought. Such contest must be brought within 10 days of the date the last board responsible for certifying the results officially certified the results of the election being contested.
For your information: Section 99.061(7)(c), Florida Statutes, provides that the qualifying officer who placed the candidate’s name on the ballot performs a purely ministerial function; that is, the qualifying officer is precluded from looking beyond the four corners of the qualifying documents to determine if the candidate is eligible to run for the office being sought.
I hope this answers your questions.
Mark Ard
Executive Assistant I
Florida Division of Elections
Phone: 850.245.6268
Fax: 850.245.6217
Mark.Ard@dos.state.fl.us


Seems straightforward enough, right? So what is the problem?

Quote:
So far there is No challenge to having Obama on the ballot in Florida.
To do so before the election — per the e-mail below –” a lawsuit would have to be filed to have the candidate removed from the ballot.
Typically, such legal actions are brought in the circuit court as a declaratory judgment action seeking the court to declare the candidate ineligible to run for the office.”

Since Florida is a KEY state — with many electoral votes and a relatively large population,

perhaps Orly Taitz could get the ball rolling here. I know she is VERY busy, but maybe Florida is more important than New Hampshire, just saying.

Right now, Florida Tea Party groups do not have the financial resources to engage the services of an attorney to file and service a lawsuit. Of course — BECAUSE THIS IS SO IMPORTANT–they may be able to take up a special collection among their membership and persons who are well off financially. And maybe they could locate an attorney to file the suit for Florida.

If Orly cannot assist here, perhaps some other attorneys would step up to the plate.


[blah blah boo hoo :-({|= ]

Jack Mertz

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:33 pm 
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I'm willing to believe the candidate has the burden of proof. But it will be pretty easily met. That is, if there is jurisdiction here at all. I'm not convinced of that.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:35 pm 
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Loren wrote:
GreatGrey wrote:
Uhhh, can someone tell me how Haynes v Wells, a case about a state election, applies to a Federal position? What are they gonna say, Obama hasn't been a Georgia resident for 2 years?


A couple of years ago, a US House candidate (Keith Gross) was challenged and removed from the ballot. The administrative law judge cited Haynes v. Wells in his decision, saying that the federal US House candidate had the burden of establishing his eligibility.

And that judge? Michael Malihi. The same judge as in this case.


I saw that it was the same judge, but here's what I don't understand: Georgia can set the residency requirements for it's Reps. They can't do that for the President.

So.... WTF?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:38 pm 
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GreatGrey wrote:
Loren wrote:
GreatGrey wrote:
Uhhh, can someone tell me how Haynes v Wells, a case about a state election, applies to a Federal position? What are they gonna say, Obama hasn't been a Georgia resident for 2 years?


A couple of years ago, a US House candidate (Keith Gross) was challenged and removed from the ballot. The administrative law judge cited Haynes v. Wells in his decision, saying that the federal US House candidate had the burden of establishing his eligibility.

And that judge? Michael Malihi. The same judge as in this case.


I saw that it was the same judge, but here's what I don't understand: Georgia can set the residency requirements for it's Reps. They can't do that for the President.

So.... WTF?


The point of citing the case is the burden of proof in the election challenge, not what the election challenge is about.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:38 pm 
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Quote:
precluded from looking beyond the four corners of the qualifying documents

Like NH. I wonder in how many other states this is true also. I like that phrase.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Butterfly Bilderberg wrote:
Anyone have access to Westlaw to Shepardize this?


I have Lexis, and there are several citing decisions, but no negative treatment.

I also found that the standard of proof put is just a preponderance of the evidence. Frankly, it's considerably EASIER for Obama to establish his eligibility than for a state candidate to do so. All Obama has to do is show he was born in the US. Preponderance met. Residency challenges are often much more complicated, involving proof of domicile, voter registration, workplace, driver's licenses, etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:40 pm 
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Loren wrote:
Butterfly Bilderberg wrote:
Anyone have access to Westlaw to Shepardize this?


I have Lexis, and there are several citing decisions, but no negative treatment.

I also found that the standard of proof put is just a preponderance of the evidence. Frankly, it's considerably EASIER for Obama to establish his eligibility than for a state candidate to do so. All Obama has to do is show he was born in the US. Preponderance met. Residency challenges are often much more complicated, involving proof of domicile, voter registration, workplace, driver's licenses, etc.


So, a short form BC would work. :)

Ohh, that'll piss off Orly.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:40 pm 
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Quote:
Since Florida is a KEY state — with many electoral votes and a relatively large population

:-$
Florida Democrats may skip 2012 presidential primary
Quote:
The party announced Wednesday that if the state's presidential primary is held before March 6, violating the rules of the national parties, state Democrats won't participate.

Instead, they'll pick delegates to their national convention in county caucuses held in June 2012 – a system similar to other states that use caucuses, not primaries, to have their say on presidential nominations.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:20 am 
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Butterfly Bilderberg wrote:
Haynes v. Wells may be an outlier. The dissenting opinion notes that:

Quote:
Normally, the person challenging an election has the burden of proof as to the allegations contained in the complaint.  Hendry v. Smith, 270 Ga. 17, 505 S.E.2d 216 (1998);  Walls v. Garrett, 247 Ga. 640(1), 277 S.E.2d 903 (1981).


Anyone have access to Westlaw to Shepardize this?


Actually, it's Lexis that has Shepard's. In any event, there's no negative treatment.

I can't see how the case is relevant in any case, as it involves the burden of a county school board candidate to prove that he had actually changed his residence to be within the residency requirements, when other evidence showed he had not met the residency requirements.

As Loren pointed out, the real issue is whether Obama was born in the country. As there is no evidence he was born to diplomats or of troops in an invading army, there's really nothing else to be decided. Even if he does have the burden of proof, he can meet it by presenting exactly the same "short-form" that he posted to the web years ago.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:38 am 
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Butterfly Bilderberg wrote:
O/T

Looks like the plan to contest the ballot in all 50 states has hit a bump in the road.


Quote:
—– Original Message —–

From: Ard, Mark
To: jjmertz48@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 9:14 AM
Subject: FW: Status of barack Obama on Florida Ballot ?????????
Dear Mr. Mertz –
Your e-mail to Secretary of State Kurt S. Browning, has been forwarded to the Division of Elections for response.
There are no statutory provisions or rules in Florida regarding challenging candidates’ names on ballots before an election occurs. Because no established procedures exist, the only recourse one has before the election is to institute a legal action to have the candidate removed from the ballot. (I really don't see any in Georgia either for the Presidential preference primary.) Typically, such legal actions are brought in the circuit court as a declaratory judgment action seeking the court to declare the candidate ineligible to run for the office. After an election, section 102.168, Florida Statutes, provides that any unsuccessful candidate for the office being sought, any voter qualified to vote in the election, or any taxpayer may file an election contest in the circuit court based upon the successful candidate’s ineligibility of the office sought. Such contest must be brought within 10 days of the date the last board responsible for certifying the results officially certified the results of the election being contested.
For your information: Section 99.061(7)(c), Florida Statutes, provides that the qualifying officer who placed the candidate’s name on the ballot performs a purely ministerial function; that is, the qualifying officer is precluded from looking beyond the four corners of the qualifying documents to determine if the candidate is eligible to run for the office being sought. (Which sounds very much like what New Hampshire said and what the California SOS said in a lawsuit so loooong ago.)
I hope this answers your questions.
Mark Ard
Executive Assistant I
Florida Division of Elections
Phone: 850.245.6268
Fax: 850.245.6217
Mark.Ard@dos.state.fl.us




This is going to be tougher than they thought...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:16 am 
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Loren wrote:
Butterfly Bilderberg wrote:
Anyone have access to Westlaw to Shepardize this?


I have Lexis, and there are several citing decisions, but no negative treatment.

I also found that the standard of proof put is just a preponderance of the evidence. Frankly, it's considerably EASIER for Obama to establish his eligibility than for a state candidate to do so. All Obama has to do is show he was born in the US. Preponderance met. Residency challenges are often much more complicated, involving proof of domicile, voter registration, workplace, driver's licenses, etc.


Born in US or to a parent who was US citizen. His mother also makes him an NBC.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:26 am 
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Haynes v. Wells references OCGA § 21-2-132(e) and OCGA § 21-2-153(e) as the foundation but I do not see it applying to the office f the President

OCGA § 21-2-132(e)

Quote:
(e) Except as provided in subsection (i) of this Code section, each candidate required to file a notice of candidacy by this Code section shall, no earlier than 9:00 A.M. on the fourth Monday in June immediately prior to the election and no later than 12:00 Noon on the second Tuesday in July immediately prior to the election, file with the same official with whom he or she filed his or her notice of candidacy a nomination petition in the form prescribed in Code Section 21-2-170, except that such petition shall not be required if such candidate is:

(1) A nominee of a political party for the office of presidential elector when such party has held a national convention and therein nominated candidates for President and Vice President of the United States;

(2) Seeking office in a special election;

(3) An incumbent qualifying as a candidate to succeed such incumbent if, prior to the election in which such incumbent was originally elected to the office for which such incumbent seeks reelection, such incumbent filed a notice of candidacy and a nomination petition as required by this chapter;

(4) A candidate seeking election in a nonpartisan election; or

(5) A nominee for a state-wide office by a duly constituted political body convention, provided that the political body making the nomination has qualified to nominate candidates for state-wide public office under the provisions of Code Section 21-2-180.


§ 21-2-153.

Quote:
Qualification of candidates for party nomination in a state or county primary; posting of list of all qualified candidates; filing of affidavit with political party by each qualifying candidate; performance of military service does not create vacancy

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:29 am 
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raicha wrote:
Butterfly Bilderberg wrote:
O/T

Looks like the plan to contest the ballot in all 50 states has hit a bump in the road.


Quote:
There are no statutory provisions or rules in Florida regarding challenging candidates’ names on ballots before an election occurs. Because no established procedures exist, the only recourse one has before the election is to institute a legal action to have the candidate removed from the ballot. [color=#FF0000]




This is going to be tougher than they thought...


Oh, I don't think it would be that tough to any legitimate challenger. After all, if there were an actual legitimate challenge to a candidate, there would be no shortage of lawyers in every state to raise that challenge. If there are no statutory provisions for such challenges, perhaps a challenger could raise such a challenge in an action in the nature of one of the prerogative writs.

I could go into more detail, but why? I'd rather just laugh at them as they fail. These clowns actually do have a vehicle (and quite possibly a statutory cause of action or three) should they wish to pursue their bullshit. I'll only comment on it in a week or four, though.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:40 am 
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So you are not volunteering to be Pambly's researcher for Florida?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:52 pm 
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Carl says there is a different judge assigned to each of three challenges in Georgia. Mebbe you knew that.


Quote:
The Georgia SOS has taken my challenge along with that of three other Georgians and is assigning A Judge to each of them. This is unfolding at a rapid pace and is happening in other parts of the country as well. Stay tuned as this promisses to be a wild ride!


then he gives link to this WND post:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=372849

He also says there's a website to keep track of all of the state's challenges. You'd think this was an organized effort. nah.

eta: I understand this is Neil Turner's site:
http://obamaballotchallenge.com/

Carl.
http://www.riseupforamerica.com/

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Carl sez:

Quote:
Had the door not opened for the possibility of different result, I wouldn't have bothered but the fact is merits have never been adjudicated. the 0 for 49 (or whatever the number is) results of the past can be thrown out the window and each defense posture will be dealt with. Will they lump them together? No one has a definitive answer on that so speculate all you wish but never discount the underdog. We are a determined bunch of scrappers with simple, reasonable requests and I do hope the Jabonski Atty starts with and hangs his hat on the BC referenced above. As a matter of fact, I'm praying he will do just that.


Does this mean Carl hopes to win on Vattel-ish theories alone? To lose on Obama's birthplace, and then win on parentage? Or has he forgotten that the overwhelming amount of 'Forged COLB' arguments are mooted when faced with a physical document, printed on security paper, with a raised seal?

That is, unless he plans on going this route:

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:50 pm 
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nbc wrote:
Haynes v. Wells references OCGA § 21-2-132(e) and OCGA § 21-2-153(e) as the foundation but I do not see it applying to the office f the President

OCGA § 21-2-132(e)


Admittedly, that code section doesn't single out Presidential candidates for special attention, but as I read it, it definitely covers independent and third-party candidates for President. Section (d) requires notices of candidacy to be filed by candidates not participating in primaries, and that includes guys like Bob Barr and Ralph Nader. So they're covered.

And it would seem bizarre (and possibly unconstitutional) to me to have a system that treats third party Presidential candidates that different from Democratic and Republican ones.

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