Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

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TollandRCR
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby TollandRCR » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:36 am

[link]Photos from New Jersey,http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2225865/Hurricane-Sandy-2012-Shocked-Obama-flies-Atlantic-City-disaster-zone.html[/link]

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Addie » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:41 am

[link]The New Yorker,http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/11/occupy-sandy.html[/link]





Occupy Sandy





Belle Harbor, Queens, about half way along the Rockaway peninsula, is four blocks across at its widest point—a splinter of East-West streets on a spit of land between the bay and the sea. Now that land is beach again. The roads are so densely packed under sand hardened into foot-high ruts and deep puddles that they seem like dirt paths, never paved. A car is suspended diagonally across the sidewalk of one of the main roads, its rear impaled on a low wall. A mangled wood fence lies in the street. In front of nearly every house is a massive pile of debris—chairs, tables, mattresses, torn bits of cloth, and garbage bags stuffed, presumably, with smaller, flimsier, more rotten things. Some of the houses have been inspected for safety by the city and have paper signs posted on their doors: green for safe, yellow for partly safe, red for not safe at all. Cloth and wood signs along Rockaway Beach Boulevard yesterday: “F.U. Sandy, Survivor beach party … BYO … GOD BLESS USA, Rockaway”; “U LOOT, WE SHOOT.”





At the St. Francis de Sales church on B-129th Street, the church hall has been taken over by Occupy Sandy—an offshoot of the still-active networks of Occupy Wall Street. Supplies have been driven here from all over Brooklyn: back there are piles of blankets; on the tables here are diapers, baby food, and cleaning supplies; over there, clothes (grownup, child, baby); more than a hundred pairs of shoes lined up neatly on the bleachers. Residents of the neighborhood wander around the hall, filling bags. In the front entranceway Occupy volunteers are unloading cases of bottled water from a truck, handing the heavy cases one to the next, a bucket brigade to the back of the church. The volunteers move fast but the job lasts more than half an hour—it’s a big truck. In front of the church, long tables have been set up on the sidewalk, where volunteers are serving hot food and peanut-butter-and-jelly sandwiches.





The Red Cross doesn’t accept individual donations of household goods—these things, it says, need to be cleaned, sorted, and repackaged, and all that takes up more time than they’re worth. It asks for financial donations only. New York Cares requires its volunteers to go through orientation sessions, all of which are full till late November. But Occupy, as you would expect, has a different style. For instance: as soon as it was safe to go outside after the storm, first thing Tuesday morning, Michael Premo and a couple of people he knew got in a car and drove over to Red Hook. Premo is a freelance artist who lives in Bedford-Stuyvesant and just turned thirty. He was at Zuccotti Park every day last fall, though he never slept there, and after the park encampment was disbanded he kept in touch with the movement. There are big neighborhood assemblies in Sunset Park and Red Hook, smaller ones elsewhere in Brooklyn. Many meet each week, organizing around local issues—rent strikes in Sunset Park, anti-gentrification in Crown Heights.





Premo worked in New Orleans after Katrina and he had a sense that right after a disaster a city’s efforts were focused on search and rescue, rather than providing supplies. He thought this was a gap Occupy could fill. He knew some people at Red Hook Initiative, a community center on Hicks Street, so he and his friends drove over there and asked what was needed—food, light, blankets. Food most of all. He and some other people got back in the car and drove to the Rockaways. He isn’t sure when they got there—probably Tuesday evening. Houses were still on fire. They walked around and asked people what they needed most.

Shut up! We can't hear the mimes! -Jacques Prévert, Les Enfants du Paradis

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Whatever4
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Whatever4 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:06 pm

I think that's the appropriate level for volunteer help. Big stuff like infrastructure, search and rescue, and coordination by federal and state government, food and shelter by the Red Cross and other big non-profits, community recovery by locally-focussed organizations. Longer-term, private companies under specific contracts to clean/clear/rebuild, coordinated by the state government. Plus insurance companies that pay off without major hassles and zoning requirements not to rebuild on barrier islands without major regulation like stilts.

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TollandRCR
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby TollandRCR » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:21 pm

... zoning requirements not to rebuild on barrier islands without major regulation like stilts.

I would hope that the insurance companies would simply refuse to insure properties on barrier islands and other high-risk areas. If our big insurance companies are not thinking that way, they may be forced to do so by the reinsurance companies. When MunichRe, SwissRe, GenRe/Berkshire Hathaway, HannoverRe, and other giants start refusing to work with insurance companies to cover what may now be uninsurable properties, our land use practices will rapidly change, probably before our policies change. State pools may be tried, but heavy losses will render them unacceptable to taxpayers.I continue to think that the heaviest pressure on governments to implement climate change policies will come from the reinsurance companies. Even health insurance companies and government health care programs may help as people realize that reducing the human impact on the environment will improve their own health. No body benefits from the burning of fossil fuels.

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby TexasFilly » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:30 pm

I haven't seen much in the press about the insurance companies. Recall that after Katrina, they denied coverage to thousands, saying the damage to homes was caused by water (not covered) rather than wind. I am interested to see what happens here.

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby MaineSkeptic » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:31 pm

I would hope that the insurance companies would simply refuse to insure properties on barrier islands and other high-risk areas.

My aunt died a couple of years ago and left us a vacation house that she owned in the (lower-end) Hamptons. It was about a half-mile from the beach and about 20 feet above sea level, and I was annoyed to see how difficult it was to find a carrier willing to insure it. To my way of thinking, it was at risk only under highly unlikely circumstances.We managed to sell it a couple of months ago. I have no idea what condition it's in now.

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Addie » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:42 pm

Tolland posted a link to an astonishing set of photos.[link]Lucy,http://www.lucytheelephant.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43&Itemid=6[/link] ain't taking no shit. [-( http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/31/article-2225348-15C7CD96000005DC-45_964x660.jpg

[link]Photos from New Jersey,http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2225865/Hurricane-Sandy-2012-Shocked-Obama-flies-Atlantic-City-disaster-zone.html[/link]

Shut up! We can't hear the mimes! -Jacques Prévert, Les Enfants du Paradis

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Whatever4
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Whatever4 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:47 pm

I haven't seen much in the press about the insurance companies. Recall that after Katrina, they denied coverage to thousands, saying the damage to homes was caused by water (not covered) rather than wind. I am interested to see what happens here.

Should we change title /add another thread about the aftermath? I'm pretty interested in the insurance angles. What about reverse mortgages? I bet that's how many of the retirees were financing retirement. Insurance companies might be the whack on the side of the head that gets the attention of business owners.





[link]A Q&A on ... disaster insurance,http://www.nj.com/njvoices/index.ssf/2012/11/a_qa_on_disaster_insurance.html[/link]


Andrew Logan, director of the insurance program for Ceres, a nonprofit coalition of investors and environmentalists





Q. The business community complains loudly about taxes and regulations. What about the financial losses from climate change?





A. We are seeing an increasing movement by business leaders and investors to advocate for more aggressive measures on climate change, because it really impacts their bottom line. But I’m surprised it’s not louder than it is. The number of businesses that will be negatively impacted by climate change far outweigh those that might see risk from regulation.





We are moving toward a tipping point where the financial case for action on global warming is overwhelming.





Q. But when will that happen? And will it be too late?





A. I think we’re closer than many think. I’ve seen a real sea change over the last year or two in the degree of concern among insurers. We’re not that far from hitting a critical mass. You think of the insurance industry as being quite conservative and Republican, but this is really about the bottom line, not just about the environment.


It’s an issue that ought to unite both left and right.


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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby esseff44 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:16 pm

If this is the new normal, I do not see the wisdom of rebuilding on barrier islands and low-lying areas subject to flooding. This is where government and the insurers need to step up and say NO to people who insist on building in harm's way. The government (we, the taxpayers)IS the ultimate insurer as we have seen in so many disasters. We ought to have a say about risk management. Turn the marshy areas back to nature and sand dunes back to sand dunes. It's not like we don't have a lot of space to build at higher elevations.Chris Hayes had a Columbia professor of engineering on his show yesterday. I urge folks to watch it. He and others had been commissioned to study what would happen to NY area if the surge were at different stages that were anticipated by the climate scientists. They issued their report 2 years ago and nothing or little was done with the predictions which were amazingly accurate. We have the scientific tools to prevent these disasters on this scale. We do not have the will or anyone who has the trust of the 'people' to cause a change of heart. Instead, we have institutions that thrive from disaster relief and reconstruction instead of putting the emphasis on prevention.The professor gave a version of the old saw "A stitch in time saves nine." He was talking about how every dollar spent on prevention saved 4-6 on relief, clean-up and restoration.Why can't we be smarter than this? :cry: :cry: Why won't people pay attention? :-k :-k

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Sugar Magnolia » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 pm

A good thing I heard on another board from a lawyer in CT about insurance up there is that, since Sandy was downgraded from a hurricane right before it hit, the deductibles might be lower. Hurricane coverage deductibles are based on a percentage of the insured value of the house so are much higher than standard homeowners coverage deductible. A small bright spot that maybe our neighbors to the NE won't have to go through the crap we did with the insurance companies.

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Lili Von Shtupp » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:38 pm

We learned after suffering major losses in Andrew that insurance companies are not in the business of paying out and use every trick in the book to make some excuse not to. Only after getting together with other victims and hiring a lawyer we finally were able to receive about 20 cents on the dollar and consider ourselves fortunate. I feel we were victimized twice once by the storm and again by the insurance company. I also agree that barrier island people me included should take responsibility for their decision to live in a high risk environment .

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby TollandRCR » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:48 am

Apocalyptic, conspiracy theory, and HAARP/chemtrails sites are reporting the total collapse of civilization in New Jersey and New York City. I no longer have contacts within Manhattan who could tell me if there is a smidgen of truth in any of what they post. I do know that Staten Island was very hard hit and that some things, such as obtaining gasoline, are very difficult.One tale is of an entire high rise filled with elderly people who were poisoned by the evil guvmint. Another is of a total lack of food and potable water. A third is of train cars in the area that are three levels deep and equipped with shackles and guillotines. A fourth is that both NYC and Washington are being patrolled by hundreds or thousands of Department of Homeland Security Military Police clad in olive-green uniforms."Drake" asserts

People are starving, freezing, wet, have no water or gas or electricity in many places, HOWEVER, people from out of state, like Churches, who enquired if they could bring trucks in with blankets, clothing, food, water, etc. were told by FEMA and NY officials that they would be TURNED AWAY because THEY have everything under control.The highways are barricaded and they’re preventing help from coming in.In Atlantic City a disabled veteran in a wheelchair says FEMA brought a hot meal to them the other day and now all the residents have food poisoning because of improper food handling practices, so they’re sick, dehydrated and no one is doing anything. This is in a Veterans’ Senior Citizens residence.In Seabright, NJ people still have hot electrical wires lying on the street but volunteer electricians from Florida were turned away because they WERE NOT UNION!

I doubt that things are entirely under control and that all needed services are being efficiently delivered, but sometimes such rumors are built upon a tiny shard of a fact. If you know something more of the actual situation in the stricken area, are these rumors just 99% incorrect or even more incorrect than that?

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Sugar Magnolia
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Sugar Magnolia » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:17 am

Pretty much bullshit from everything I'm hearing from my friends in New York and New Jersey. As to your specific examples, the power crew that was supposedly turned away was from AL, not FL and there was little truth to it to begin with. The affected companies are flatly denying they were turned away and the initial story blamed it on the IBEW, not any official agency. 50 of our disaster trained Special Operations Group with the MS Highway Patrol left here yesterday loaded down with supplies to help the local law enforcement agencies in the NE. Our power company has sent hundreds of workers as has Entergy-New Orleans. The gas situation is still pretty critical (it took my girlfriend 3 days to get gas for her car so she could get back to her house on Long Island) but food and water are being delivered and distributed as fast as possible. The worst hit areas have very tight controls on who has access to the areas and require proof that you are actually a resident but that is SOP for a disaster area. The barricades are not preventing help from getting in, they are preventing lookie-loos with 4 cases of water in the backseat calling themselves relief workers from joyriding around the area. Having things "under control" simply means they have a logistics plan that doesn't include a random bunch of do-gooders flooding what is quite probably still an unsafe area. I have no doubt they are referring any church or other group who shows up unannounced to some sort of central staging area. As for the food poisoning, there is a reason that MREs are used and the Red Cross only gives out 2 hot meals per person at the time. It's not so much to conserve food as it is to keep people from eating the food days later. The vet from the senior citizen's home doesn't say if FEMA delivered the food today or a week ago so there's no way to know the truth behind that statement. It could have been served by the staff long after it should have been. A whole high-rise of elderly people would be especially suseptible to castastropies simply based on being in a high-rise for days with no power or water and most likely, no way to make their way down with no elevators. Thousands die during every heat wave for the same reason. Train cars stacked with guillotines is just mind-boggling. I imagine they are extrapolating (and flat out lying) based on the flooded rail yards that tossed train cars like dominoes. The same thing happened here with the thousands and thousands of tractor trailers. I'm bettig the thousands of Homeland Security forces are probably the National Guard and the residents I know up there are extremely grateful to see them. In the interest of full disclosure, the people I am in closest contact with up there (over a dozen spread out from NJ to NY to CT) all went through Katrina so they may have a little different outlook on things considering at this point after landfall of Katrina some of them were still waiting to be rescued and not actively in the recovery phase yet.

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby TollandRCR » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:23 am

That makes sense to me.The prison train cars have been a meme for quite a while now and are usually connected to the "thousands" of FEMA camps that have been constructed around the country and the triple-height caskets that are in storage. We even once watched a loon broadcasting on troop movements while trying to hold down a job as a security guard.This level of insanity worries me more than a bit.

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Sugar Magnolia
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Sugar Magnolia » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:31 am

That makes sense to me.The prison train cars have been a meme for quite a while now and are usually connected to the "thousands" of FEMA camps that have been constructed around the country and the triple-height caskets that are in storage. We even once watched a loon broadcasting on troop movements while trying to hold down a job as a security guard.This level of insanity worries me more than a bit.

It's a lower level of insanity than the reports of gang rapes and dismemberments and mass shootings at helicopters that were coming out of New Orleans post-federal-flood. I'm not trying to minimize the insanity, just saying that it is commonplace after any sort of natural disaster until communications are completely and reliably re-established. And remember that this sort of situation is prime for the nutballs to get their piece in before the facts are known. If they don't strike with their own brand of crazy while the time is ripe, they lose the opportunity to screech about guillotines and chemtrails and all that crap. The time is ripe while they have access to print media and youtube, and NY and NJ are too busy to slap down every batshit report.

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby verbalobe » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:33 am

I changed the thread title. Thanks for the suggestion.Bill Maher last night was largely on Sandy, climate change, and long term energy policy. I don't find his stychomythic style of debate and snark very edifying, but overall it was a good program. The key points I would like to have made are:- whatever one thinks is the right way to mitigate greenhouse gases (e.g., nuclear, gas, alternatives, the 'all of the above' approach, international initiatives, etc.), it's crucial that the discussion not get hijacked or sabotaged by liars and deniers.- when conservatives (as did Margaret Hoover on that show) point out that greenhouse gas mitigation must be done in a way that doesn't harm the economy (insofar as possible), Maher correctly pointed out that such a calculation should take into account the possibility that runaway climate change would itself impose huge costs on society. In a narrower context, I would have added that that (economically responsible reduction in the growth of fossil fuel consumption, and economically responsible expansion of renewables) is exactly the approach Obama has been advocating from day one. One can argue about whether he's done enough, whether the mix is right, whether nuclear is safe enough, whether deep-water drilling is safe enough, etc..... but when I hear the veiled criticism that ignores his very centrist position, I become suspicious that it is a dogwhistle for "let's not do anything, and especially anything that might erode Big Oil profits."

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby MaineSkeptic » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:27 am

One can argue about whether he's done enough, whether the mix is right, whether nuclear is safe enough, whether deep-water drilling is safe enough, etc..... but when I hear the veiled criticism that ignores his very centrist position, I become suspicious that it is a dogwhistle for "let's not do anything, and especially anything that might erode Big Oil profits."

And coal. What the hell are we going to do about coal?It's environmentally devastating, but the economic well-being of large ares of the country depends on it.It's a real pickle.

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Postby SueDB » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:49 pm

One can argue about whether he's done enough, whether the mix is right, whether nuclear is safe enough, whether deep-water drilling is safe enough, etc..... but when I hear the veiled criticism that ignores his very centrist position, I become suspicious that it is a dogwhistle for "let's not do anything, and especially anything that might erode Big Oil profits."

And coal. What the hell are we going to do about coal?It's environmentally devastating, but the economic well-being of large ares of the country depends on it.It's a real pickle.

Somehow someway...someone just has to figure out how to cheaply extract the energy present in coal without the resulting mess from just burning coal.Coal is a mass of organic chemicals as well as carbon. The Germans in WWII made synthetic fuel (at a bit of a cost) from coal and anything else they could get their hands on.
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby esseff44 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:08 pm

One can argue about whether he's done enough, whether the mix is right, whether nuclear is safe enough, whether deep-water drilling is safe enough, etc..... but when I hear the veiled criticism that ignores his very centrist position, I become suspicious that it is a dogwhistle for "let's not do anything, and especially anything that might erode Big Oil profits."

And coal. What the hell are we going to do about coal?It's environmentally devastating, but the economic well-being of large ares of the country depends on it.It's a real pickle.

And coal country is where the GOP did a really good scare job and have been getting residents of those areas to vote against their interests. WV and the Appalachian parts of Ohio, Kentucky where mining is such a big part of the economy and they cannot imagine another way to live.The sooner we can phase out coal and go to cleaner energy, the better. But it's not going to stop the political exploitation of the coal country folk until they have another way to make a living. If Carter had his way, the area would be involved in the manufacture of solar cells and we would already be free of Big Oil and Big Coal. But it is not going to happen until Big Oil and Big Coal can bankrupt the solar/wind/biofuel companies, buy them up and transform into making the profits themselves.

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Addie » Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:37 pm

[link]NY Daily News,http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2012/11/cuomo-signs-order-allowing-hurricane-victims-to-vote-anywhere[/link]





Cuomo Signs Order Allowing Hurricane Victims To Vote Anywhere





With Election Day turmoil expected because of the ongoing problems caused by Superstorm Sandy, Gov. Cuomo has signed an executive order allowing displaced voters to cast ballots at any polling site.





A person would go to a polling place, sign an affidavit and fill out a ballot anonymously, Cuomo said.





The vote will count for the presidential race or the U.S. Senate race.





But a person’s vote won’t count if they are voting at a site that is not their home state Senate or Assembly district.

Shut up! We can't hear the mimes! -Jacques Prévert, Les Enfants du Paradis

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TollandRCR
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby TollandRCR » Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:52 pm

...The sooner we can phase out coal and go to cleaner energy, the better. But it's not going to stop the political exploitation of the coal country folk until they have another way to make a living. If Carter had his way, the area would be involved in the manufacture of solar cells and we would already be free of Big Oil and Big Coal. But it is not going to happen until Big Oil and Big Coal can bankrupt the solar/wind/biofuel companies, buy them up and transform into making the profits themselves.

Robert Byrd tried to move a large part of the Federal government to his part of coal country. This may have done nothing at all for coal miners and their children. It was not only the Germans who made gas and gasoline-like products from coal; we did as well, lighting our cities with that predecessor of natural gas. DOE has an R&D project underway on coal gasification that may yield fuels that burn much more cleanly than coal.However, one key to the future is to stop thinking of petroleum, natural gas, and coal as fossil fuels and start thinking of them as organic chemical resources. You burn a fuel; you don't have to burn petroleum, natural gas, and coal to realize major benefits from them. You could burn teak to heat your home, but you don't because you know it has better uses. So do what we now consider to be substances to set on fire or explode.

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Emma
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Emma » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:04 am

Mayor Booker has tweeted out links to amazon registries where you can purchase supplies that will be delivered those in need. New Hope Baptist Church, Newark: [/break1]amazon.com/registry/wedding/31BSF6P57V1S2]http://www.amazon.com/registry/wedding/31BSF6P57V1S2Covenant House, caring for homeless families: [/break1]amazon.com/registry/baby/3LES7MA5NDRM2]http://www.amazon.com/registry/baby/3LES7MA5NDRM2Kewl idea :)

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SueDB
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby SueDB » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:14 am

My Cousin works for The Martin Agency. They are busy shipping needed supplies from Richmond to the affected area.Donations are appreciated. Don't have a paypal link at the moment...Make it a little harder for the harvesting bots....[sekrit]The Martin Agency ATTN: Alice at RVA2NYOne Shockoe PlazaRichmond, VA 23219[/sekrit]
"Scientific Research: A whole lotta tedious attention to detail followed
by a lovely payoff too esoteric for your friends to understand."
anon--

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TexasFilly
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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby TexasFilly » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:18 am

My BFF lives on Long Island now. They lost their electricity on October 26 and got it back yesterday. And they are grateful.

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Hurricane Sandy, Oct 2012 - and AFTERMATH

Postby Addie » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:56 am

[link]Associated Press,http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SUPERSTORM_BEACH_EROSION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-11-20-03-30-45[/link]





Study: NJ beaches 30 to 40 feet narrower after Sandy





SPRING LAKE, N.J. (AP) -- The average New Jersey beach is 30 to 40 feet narrower after Superstorm Sandy, according to a survey that is sure to intensify a long-running debate on whether federal dollars should be used to replenish stretches of sand that only a fraction of U.S. taxpayers use.





Some of New Jersey's famous beaches lost half their sand when Sandy slammed ashore in late October.





The shore town of Mantoloking, one of the hardest-hit communities, lost 150 feet of beach, said Stewart Farrell, director of Stockton College's Coastal Research Center and a leading expert on beach erosion.





Routine storms tear up beaches in any season, and one prescription for protecting communities from storm surge has been to replenish beaches with sand pumped from offshore. Places with recently beefed-up beaches saw comparatively little damage, said Farrell, whose study's findings were made available to The Associated Press.

Shut up! We can't hear the mimes! -Jacques Prévert, Les Enfants du Paradis


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