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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:06 pm 
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Somerset wrote:
Combining medicine and policy, as well as medicine and business is where things get a little murky. I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I think you agree that the use of MJ can be good medicine in some circumstances. And I will agree with you that there are examples where use of MMJ is bad medicine. Drawing the line will always be a judgement call, but that's the nature of medicine in general.

The original point of this thread wasn't good or bad medicine, but good or bad policy. To that end, let me shift the focus of the discussion a little bit, and ask your opinion on whether MJ should be taken off the list of Schedule I drugs.


The reason state-based policies are going to run into federal concerns on a regular basis is why the Supreme Court upheld a federal ban on marijuana even in the face of legalized medical marijuana in California, in Gonzales v. Raich. Where there is a legal market for medicinal marijuana, there is always going to be market overhang on the federal market, which also includes jurisdictions where the substance is illegal and therefore more profitable. It is therefore inevitable that legal medical marijuana impacts interstate commerce, because of the strong market forces favoring diversion from legal into illegal markets.

Policy-wise, our federal drug policy makes no sense at all. It is a much stronger logical argument that our federal drug policy has led to vastly expensive incarceration of mostly harmless and nonviolent pot offenders, who also as a consequence are not earning paychecks and paying taxes, while harming families and empowering organized crime (especially the ultraviolent Mexican drug cartels currently waging a near civil war in Mexico). Our federal drug policies are absurdly inefficient, lead to massive violation of human rights, and are discrediting the very idea of rule of law by rendering the Fourth Amendment nearly a nullity in drug cases.

However, logic and reason get you nowhere in politics. It's much more emotionally compelling to point to some terminally ill cancer and AIDS patients, even if many of the "patients" have "medical conditions" on the order of "today was a bummer, man." If any use of medical marijuana, though, is medically justified, its anti-nausea properties would be that use, with use in glaucoma a close second. I'm not willing to throw out that baby with the bathwater even if the bathwater is more of an Olympic-sized swimming pool. As an aside, I think rational thought suggests that moderate hedonism of any sort, whether chemical or otherwise, may actually have a positive effect on health.

The considerable harm to those legitimate patients, however many they may be, is not balanced out in the least by the people, however many those may be, who just want to catch a buzz, because who sane really gives a fuck?

Yes, that makes medical marijuana policy pretty much a joke as far as medicine is concerned, at least for many participants. Yes, it's clearly just a wedge issue in an attempt to force change on marijuana policy in general. As states try out various MMJ regimes, and other states see that the skies have not fallen as a result, resistance to full legalization will also decrease.

As a result, I honestly don't see the benefit of the feds emphasizing enforcement of federal laws against MMJ except in the most extreme cases, where the behavior of dispensaries would constitute crimes no matter what they were selling. My policy, were I king, would be simple. Only prosecute dishonest pot dealers.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:10 am 
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A Legal Lohengrin wrote:
The reason state-based policies are going to run into federal concerns on a regular basis is why the Supreme Court upheld a federal ban on marijuana even in the face of legalized medical marijuana in California, in Gonzales v. Raich. Where there is a legal market for medicinal marijuana, there is always going to be market overhang on the federal market, which also includes jurisdictions where the substance is illegal and therefore more profitable. It is therefore inevitable that legal medical marijuana impacts interstate commerce, because of the strong market forces favoring diversion from legal into illegal markets.


I didn't think of it that way, but it makes sense. Create an artificial gap between two markets and arbitrage is inevitable.

Quote:

....If any use of medical marijuana, though, is medically justified, its anti-nausea properties would be that use, with use in glaucoma a close second. I'm not willing to throw out that baby with the bathwater even if the bathwater is more of an Olympic-sized swimming pool.


Yeah, and I think that's the point OG was trying to make.

Quote:
As an aside, I think rational thought suggests that moderate hedonism of any sort, whether chemical or otherwise, may actually have a positive effect on health.


\:D/

Quote:
....... As a result, I honestly don't see the benefit of the feds emphasizing enforcement of federal laws against MMJ except in the most extreme cases, where the behavior of dispensaries would constitute crimes no matter what they were selling. My policy, were I king, would be simple. Only prosecute dishonest pot dealers.


:smoking: <long sucking sound> Snicker, tee hee hee, giggle. Dude, that is like, so funny dude. Like, got any munchies around here?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:47 am 
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Quote:
Only prosecute dishonest pot dealers.


Why bother, when the DEA can go after state legislators instead:

From Michael Moore at The Missoulian:

A possible witness in a federal drug investigation was asked whether Sands might be part of a conspiracy to sell medical marijuana. The questions came from Drug Enforcement Administration agents from Billings who were investigating medical marijuana businesses, and Sands learned about the inquiry from the witness' attorney.

"So now, if you're a state legislator who has been working on medical marijuana laws, you are somehow part of a conspiracy," said Sands, who represents House District 95 in Missoula and works as development director for the Historical Museum at Fort Missoula. "It's ridiculous, of course, but it's also threatening to think that the federal government is willing to use its influence and try to chill discussion about this subject."


It's disgusting that the DEA even exists, let alone that they're going after honest people doing their jobs.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:54 am 
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John Thomas8 wrote:
It's disgusting that the DEA even exists, let alone that they're going after honest people doing their jobs.

Hear hear! (Is that a homophone?)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:12 pm 
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Big Non Medical Marijuana bust in Bronx.....5 floors of warehouse.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 2#46220682

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:48 pm 
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SueDB wrote:
Old Grunt wrote:
SueDB wrote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2420426

Can J Physiol Pharmacol. 1986 Jan;64(1):1-6.
The therapeutic use of heroin: a review of the pharmacological literature.
Sawynok J.
Abstract

Heroin is currently being advocated by some as a superior therapeutic agent for use in terminal illness. However, a review of the literature on heroin presently available does not support this contention. Administered orally, heroin is approximately 1.5 times more potent than morphine in controlling chronic pain in terminal cancer patients. Its effects on mood and the incidence and nature of side effects do not differ from those of morphine excep.....

You should listen a bit more rather than flapping.


You learn something new every day. Thanks for the info. If it's 1.5 more potent then morphine then fentanyl is 750 times more potent than herion. Again, the big bad FDA isn't keeping heroin down. There are simply better pain control modalities.


Nice nasty snotty doctor comeback good luck on your practice - you'll need it.


I was being sincere. I am grateful when someone informs me of something. Needless to say, you don't learn a lot about the pharmacological properties of Heroin in Medical School. Once again, you are wrong in your assertion that it is the most powerful pain killer on the market.

I take it you are on chemo or immunosuppression for chrons? No doubt that's expensive. No doubt that MJ is not an immunosuppressive that can treat your disease. If you read my first post, you'll notice that chemotherapy and HAART therapy are the few indications where I think medical marijuania would be appropriate.

That being said, these days I just want them to legalize it so physicians don't have to start doing Kentucky windage w/ MMJ therapy.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:53 pm 
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SueDB wrote:
Edit: I was wondering where your references were? You make and implied a number of claims.


From my head. You learn such things in pharmacology. Though, I added an extra zero. Fentanyl is 100 more powerful than morphine. You can check the relative dosing to see what I mean, but it's why fentanyl is dosed in mcg and morphine is dosed in mg.

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/Datash ... injUSP.htm

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:10 pm 
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SueDB wrote:
Big Non Medical Marijuana bust in Bronx.....5 floors of warehouse.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 2#46220682


What a waste of police resources.

I have yet to see a valid reason that marijuana is illegal and we jail tens of thousands over it.

That "nanny says so and knows better" isn't a valid reason.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:07 am 
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I would like to make a public apology to OldGrunt. I realize that things have changed since I retired from the medical field. I will have to admit to the grave error of not keeping up.

I appreciate your interest in the Crohn's. We the docs figured it out, the passed it around as to which one of them would tell me. Basically, the rest of may life sentence without parole slowly deteriorating over time no matter just trying to keep cheerful and a good outlook while everything in my life has changed - flipped over and over again. I've been continually administered the Remicade for the last year and a half along with a boatload (Imuran, Zyloprim lipids, HBR etc and old man stuff as my 50,000 mile 50 year warranty is up).

I guess I have lost a little step while I have been dealing with too many things. Change should be a good then, so I should be at the really good part of my life rather than having my disease dictate where and when I can go somewhere.

I have seen lots and lots of doctors, dentists, vets, come and go over a 30 year period. Sometimes I have allowed my cynicism to over rule any good sense left in the old noggin. In this case, I should be getting my infusion next Wednesday and the last week is a real bitch.

Please accept my congratulations on your board. I wish you the bet into your practice.

Please accept my sincerest apologies. Thank you.

Always ready to watch the the show though -xx -xx -xx

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You can follow the action, which gets you good pictures.
You can follow your instincts, which'll probably get you in trouble.

Or... you can follow the money...
which nine times out of ten will get you closer to the truth.
"The Two Jakes"


Remember, Orly NEVAH disappoints!


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