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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:10 pm 
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mimi wrote:
Are they gonna bury it from helicopter? :-? I haven't heard anything about that, except as noted in the story above. I'm just wondering.

Helicopters were used at Chernobyl, but so was earth-moving equipment. Only a few of those who participated in this "liquidation" of the reactor are still alive.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:13 pm 
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Live streaming of the water drop onto the plant is here (from NHK World)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:22 pm 
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Ozzie wrote:
Live streaming of the water drop onto the plant is here (from NHK World)

Why are they using crowd-control water cannons rather than fireboats? Too far back from the ocean? Fireboats have an unlimited supply of water; the cannons draw off a tank. Surely Japan has fireboats like those in New York Harbor.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:36 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
Ozzie wrote:
Live streaming of the water drop onto the plant is here (from NHK World)

Why are they using crowd-control water cannons rather than fireboats? Too far back from the ocean? Fireboats have an unlimited supply of water; the cannons draw off a tank. Surely Japan has fireboats like those in New York Harbor.


I'm not sure - they are talking about using seawater for coolant, so I guess its not because they were against using that instead of fresh water.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:46 pm 
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They most certainly do have fireboats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireboat

Quote:
Government & Military with Fireboats

* Japan Coast Guard - 9; 230 patrol boats with water cannons or fire fighting support systems.


Image

Tokyo Fire Department's Ariake Fireboat

Image

Japan Coast Guard patrol boat with water cannons discharging.

Maybe they don't have a lot of range or there is problems using them on the open sea or off that area of coast.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Here's The Google depicting the plant's proximity to the coast, which you can zoom in to and also switch to satellite view as needed:

Google Map

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:17 pm 
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poutine wrote:
Here's The Google depicting the plant's proximity to the coast, which you can zoom in to and also switch to satellite view as needed:

Google Map

It could be range is the problem. Those reactors are further back from the ocean than I had imagined.

I cannot imagine how this can end well. The destruction of the TEPCO company is a given and probably a good thing. It looks like six nuclear reactors have been taken out of service simultaneously, with what have to be economic repercussions. People who have been repeatedly exposed -- the 50 heroes -- are going to start dying. And the risk of serious radiation in a city of 30,000,000 people seems very real. It seems to me that things are likely to get far worse than now, particularly since all six reactors are problematic. The French seem to have it right:
Quote:
Fears of ‘an apocalypse’ were raised by European officials as radiation levels soared. In another attack, French Industry Minister Eric Besson said: ‘Let’s not beat about the bush. They have visibly lost the essential of control (of the situation). That is our analysis, in any case, it’s not what they are saying.’

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Suranis wrote:
They most certainly do have fireboats.

...

Maybe they don't have a lot of range or there is problems using them on the open sea or off that area of coast.


Looking at the link to the map poutine provided, range is most likely the issue. Rapid googling seems to indicate that the range of most water cannon is on the order of 100 meters or so. The plant is right on the coast, but even if the fireboats could run right up to the seawall, the reactor buildings look to be beyond that point. So it seems unlikely that they could get water from the boats to the building, let alone up to the roofs, using cannon.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:55 pm 
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Even if range is not an issue, radiation is; the prevailing winds have been blowing out to sea. Fireboats would be right in the path of the worst of the radiation.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:50 am 
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I see both U.S. and Britain are chartering flights to get their citizens out of Japan. I saw Britain said from Tokyo and north of there. U.S. said within 50 mile radius.

I think I read U.S. charters are Friday.

Quote:
RT @AmbassadorRoos: We recommend that US citizens who live within 50 miles of the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant evacuate the area or to take shelter indoors.


Quote:
U.S. citizens in need of emergency assistance should send an e-mail to JapanEmergencyUSC@state.gov with detailed information. 17 minutes ago via HootSuite

http://twitter.com/AmbassadorRoos/

U.S. Calls Radiation ‘Extremely High;’ Sees Japan Nuclear Crisis Worsening


Quote:
WASHINGTON — The chairman of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission gave a far bleaker appraisal on Wednesday of the threat posed by Japan’s nuclear crisis than the Japanese government had offered. He said American officials believed that the damage to at least one crippled reactor was much more serious than Tokyo had acknowledged, and he advised Americans to stay much farther away from the plant than the perimeter established by Japanese authorities.


Japan is pushing back on the U.S. assessment. U.S. is not having any of that.


Quote:
While radiation levels at the plant have varied tremendously, Mr. Jaczko [YAZZ-koe] said that the peak levels reported there “would be lethal within a fairly short period of time.” He added that another spent fuel pool, at Reactor No. 3, might also be losing water and could soon be in the same condition.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

Japan has told it's citizens within 12 miles to evacuate, and within 20 miles to take shelter. I hope they leave now.

I already posted a link to a graphic from lfpress about the Radiation Exposure.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:15 am 
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Associated Press March 17, 2011 "Bungling, cover-ups define Japanese nuclear power"
Quote:
With such strong government support and a culture that ordinarily frowns upon dissent, regulators tend not to push for rigorous safety, said Amory Lovins, an expert on energy policy and founder of the Rocky Mountain Institute.

"You add all that up and it's a recipe for people to cut corners in operation and regulation," Lovins said.

The United States, Japan's close ally, has also raised questions about the coziness between Japanese regulators and industry and implicitly questioned Tokyo's forthrightness over the Fukushima crisis. The director of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission and the U.S. ambassador this week issued bleaker assessments about the dangers at the plant than the Japanese government or Tepco.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:08 am 
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Coulter is doing the "Radiation may be good for you" thing.

Our friend Sharon Meroni has passed Coulter's article along on twitter noting that it's an excellent read:

Quote:
Pls RT this EXCELLENT article!!! RT @Dbargen Coulter:Radiation may be GOOD for you! http://bit.ly/hmZVz0 #tcot #phnm #sgp #tpp #teaparty #p2

Tweeted from two of her accounts.
http://twitter.com/LibertyChalice/

http://twitter.com/patriotsheart/


Ann Coulter
A Glowing Report on Radiation

Quote:
With the terrible earthquake and resulting tsunami that have devastated Japan, the only good news is that anyone exposed to excess radiation from the nuclear power plants is now probably much less likely to get cancer.

This only seems counterintuitive because of media hysteria for the past 20 years trying to convince Americans that radiation at any dose is bad. There is, however, burgeoning evidence that excess radiation operates as a sort of cancer vaccine.

As The New York Times science section reported in 2001, an increasing number of scientists believe that at some level -- much higher than the minimums set by the U.S. government -- radiation is good for you. "They theorize," the Times said, that "these doses protect against cancer by activating cells' natural defense mechanisms."


Quote:
Although reporters love to issue sensationalized reports about the danger from Japan's nuclear reactors, remember that, so far, thousands have died only because of Mother Nature. And the survivors may outlive all of us over here in hermetically sealed, radiation-free America.


http://townhall.com/columnists/anncoult ... page/full/

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:15 am 
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Oh Jeebus! Those "increasing number of scientists" include Art Robinson, who ran for Congress up in Oreegun. The one who appeared on the Rachel Maddow show in his Carhart jacket, and called her "missy". Since radiation is so good for you, I suggest Coulter and Meroni get right over there. Pronto.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:20 am 
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mimi wrote:
Coulter is doing the "Radiation may be good for you" thing.

Did Coulter eat a lot of lead paint as a baby??

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:25 am 
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Quote:
radiation can be GOOD for you


I guess that's why FoxNews pulled all its reporters back to Tokyo.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:28 am 
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No! Ann doesn't believe eating is good for you. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:36 am 
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Alrighty then, Mann. Let's send you to Japan to monitor conditions. Then, in a few months, you can tell us how glowing your complexion is and how no, you've always looked skeletal, it has nothing to do with the radiation. In fact, you feel FANTASTIC, don't you , Mann?

Lets start a movement to get her there, STAT.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:32 pm 
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More on TEPCO's history of errors, failures, and cover-ups, and lax or corrupt governmental regulation:

Bloomberg Business Week March 17, 2011 "Japan Nuclear Disaster Caps Decades of Faked Reports, Accidents"
Quote:
Nuclear engineers and academics who have worked in Japan’s atomic power industry spoke in interviews of a history of accidents, faked reports and inaction by a succession of Liberal Democratic Party governments that ran Japan for nearly all of the postwar period.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:56 pm 
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More of the same kind of analysis of this accident, focusing on what went wrong with the human side of nuclear power generation. Reuters March 17,2011 "Special report: Mistakes, misfortune, meltdown: Japan's quake"
Quote:
An examination by Reuters of Japan's effort to contain its escalating nuclear disaster reveals a series of missteps, bad luck and desperate improvisation. What also emerges is a country that has begun to question some of its oldest values. Japanese have long revered the country's bureaucratic competence, especially when it is contrasted with its political dysfunction. Japan has also proudly often chosen to go its own way and turn down outside assistance. But what happens when competence begins to break down? And what happens when a disaster is so overwhelming that outside help is vital?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:14 pm 
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Quote:
UPDATE 10:52 AM, THURSDAY 3/17: NHK reports that 30 km (approximately) 19 miles to the northwest of Fukushima, radiation levels are still dangerously high: "Experts say exposure to those levels for 6 hours would result in absorption of the maximum level considered safe for 1 year." This is noteworthy because the Japanese government has thus far warned residents to stay indoors if they're within 30 km of the plant.


They are not moving their citizens fast enough.


Quote:
UPADATE 10:21 AM, THURSDAY 3/17: With the crisis in Japan still far from over, the debate in Washington is quickly shifting toward domestic policy: Specifically, what to do about nuclear power in the United States. On that note, the Union of Concerned Scientists is out with a new report today examining more than a dozen "near misses" at nuclear power plants in the United States in the last year, and the response by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the federal government's atomic watchdog. For instance, at Indian Point Energy Center in Westchester, New York, "the NRC discovered that the liner of a refueling cavity at Unit 2 has been leaking since at least 1993." The takeway: "The NRC is capable of functioning as a highly effective watchdog, but also makes clear that much work remains to be done before the agency can fulfill that role as consistently as the public has a right to expect." We'll have more on that in a little bit, but you can check out the report here.


http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011 ... cy#update1

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:20 pm 
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kimba wrote:
Quote:
radiation can be GOOD for you


I guess that's why FoxNews pulled all its reporters back to Tokyo.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VKzqAef ... re=related

According to J. Frank Parnell, it is. We can all stand 100 chest x-rays a year and we ought to have them, too!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:45 am 
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I just watched the maddow show from last night. The reason the emergency equipment (the helicopters & other vehicles trying to pour water) have been so far away is because of the radiation levels.

It was a good segment. It's not on the YouTube yet and I don't know how to post from msnbc. But you can click here if you're interested.

First segment of the show.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#42142166

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:53 am 
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Sky News, so likely to be sensationalistic. March 18, 2001
'Nuclear Ninja' Suicide Mission To Save Japan
Quote:
A handful of "heroes" working to avert a total meltdown at Japan's crippled nuclear plant have told loved ones not to expect them to return home.
...
The Japanese media have dubbed the elite squad of 180 technicians the "Samurai Warriors" and even the "Nuclear Ninjas" as they try to save their country.
...
Nuclear experts have said the men are on a suicide mission and that not even their airtight suits can save them from contamination.

And if they survive, they will face a lifetime of health problems.

But the Fukushima Fifty, named as they are on a rotation of 50 at a time, are working around the clock to stop the plant's reactors from overheating by taking it in turns to cool them with water.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:26 am 
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In 2009 the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD, the rich countries' club) issued a report, "OECD Reviews of Risk Management Policies. Japan: Large-scale Floods and Earthquakes"

Reviewing that report on March 17, 2011, OECD Japan: Hard questions and no easy solutions recalled its recommendation:
Quote:
Indeed, at the request of the Japanese government, in 2009 the OECD carried out review of Japan’s risk management policies concerning large-scale floods and earthquakes. Among other recommendations, the report states that: “Industries that can trigger special harm in case of flood accidents, such as chemical and nuclear industries, should be required by law to move to safer areas”.
The Japanese government took no steps to implement that recommendation, even to implement its logical corollary: make "industries that can trigger special harm" more resistant in case of flood accidents.
Quote:
We have to pay attention to the combination of human factors, economic opportunism and political influences that characterise decision making in a practical context. Rather than deploring these exogenous influences, they could be integrated into the process – by assuming that operators will always look for ways to save time/money/effort or that industry will resist backtracking on a technology that has been adopted. We have to learn to factor the costs of catastrophe – environmental economic and social – into the decisions around prevention and maintenance.

Otherwise, we end up with grim advice such as that given by Yuli Andreyev, former head of the agency tasked with cleaning up after Chernobyl. Yesterday, he told the Guardian that the Japanese authorities “had to be willing to sacrifice nuclear response workers for the good of the greater public”.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:15 pm 
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I forgot to write that I observed something interesting, odd yesterday. Shepard Smith in Tokyo was interviewing someone who was an engineer for a nuclear regulatory agency during the time that TEPCO was installing the first reactors at Fukushima. This person alleged that TEPCO had lied on various disclosures regarding safety, construction. Smith questioned him for several minutes, then the guy said "Have you talked to GE? You should really talk to GE, they built reactor 1." Then silence and Smith said "That was XX". As soon as that guy said "GE", the call was over. Do you guys think that was because of the GE/NBC connection? Or that GE is a big US business?


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