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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:53 am 
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TollandRCR wrote:
Possible explanations:
  • Some stories are out of date.
  • The information being provided is ambiguous or conflicting.
  • Headline writers grasp for sensational titles, even if the articles do not support them.
  • The situation is highly volatile.
  • Nobody really knows what is happening with radiation levels.
  • All of the above.


FIFY

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:24 am 
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Mikedunford wrote:
TollandRCR wrote:
Possible explanations:
  • Some stories are out of date.
  • The information being provided is ambiguous or conflicting.
  • Headline writers grasp for sensational titles, even if the articles do not support them.
  • The situation is highly volatile.
  • Nobody really knows what is happening with radiation levels.
  • All of the above.


FIFY


Bingo. This is a situation where we will likely not learn the truth until significant time has passed. If I were in Japan, I would be very worried about my proximity to the plants. Here on the west coast of the USA, I understand that the 5000 miles between us and Japan is enough to cause any major leaks to safely diffuse by the time winds carry them over here. I have not seen answers to that same question for other countries, and Hawaii/Alaska.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:25 am 
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TollandRCR wrote:
I was curious about whether radiation levels around the Fukushima nuclear power complex are rising or falling. The available information is mixed. I did a Google search for March 15 articles reporting radiation levels and list the first ten hits below:
Bloomberg/SF Gate Radiation Risk Rises as Japan Struggles in Quake Aftermath
Bloomberg Japanese Nuclear Plant Radiation Recedes as Engineers Restore Water Level
MSNBC Japan PM: Radiation leaking from damaged plant
Channel 4 (UK) Nuclear crisis at Fukushima in Japan as radiation rises
Business Standard Japan warns of high radioactivity around Fukushima
MoneyLife Japan crisis: PM warns radioactive levels high after third blast at Fukushima nuclear power plant
Channel 7 (AU) Japan braces for potential radiation catastrophe
Daily Telegraph (AU) Japan earthquake: Nuclear meltdown at Fukushima plant highly likely
Mainichi Daily News "Radiation levels shoot up in Tokyo, vicinity"

Possible explanations:
  • Some stories are out of date.
  • The information being provided is ambiguous or conflicting.
  • Headline writers grasp for sensational titles, even if the articles do not support them.
  • The situation is highly volatile.
  • Nobody really knows what is happening with radiation levels.

The best explanation: TEPCO and the Japanese Government are lying.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:08 pm 
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I follow lfpress on scribd. they have a good graphic on the nuclear problems. Verbie might like this account.

http://www.scribd.com/lfpress

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:32 pm 
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This is a big shame because that area relies heavily on it's fishing output and even though the radiation is reported to be headed out to sea "at the moment" that will not bode well for the surrounding fishing industry and even if they can get a lid on it the damge has been done in that regard.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Well heres a solid fact. Heres a picture from here http://park18.wakwak.com/~weather/geiger_index.html which is a guy with a geiger counter hooked up to a computer in Tokyo

Image

Aside from that information is fragmented and contradictory. Another forum I read, with people who appear to know what they are talking about, say that everything was not really giving them concern till the number 4 fire started. That was the first oh fuck moment.

There are also reports that crews from the USS Reagan are on the ground. They are from a CVN and there's few people better trained to deal with an emergency in a nuclear reactor.

Unconfirmed reports say that radiation levels inside the plant are too high for people to stay, and they are planning to dump coolant in through helicopters. That smacks of sensationalism to me though.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Sterngard Friegen wrote:
The best explanation: TEPCO and the Japanese Government are lying.


Which is in keeping with TEPCO's past behavior in dealing with other, lesser crises. And, of course, in keeping with the tendency of all governments to lie.

When I read up on TEPCO's troubling past, I am amazed that more has not been done to rough up the company as a response to its past transgressions. While I claim no expertise on Japan's legal system, my rudimentary understanding is that tort law is essentially nonexistent in that country. Consequently, if government regulators fail to address violations of standards of conduct, there really are no other institutions within Japan with the means or motivation to do so. In our country and others, that is a role filled in by tort law, i.e., plaintiff lawyers.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:15 pm 
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What I don't understand is why they store the spent rods on top of the frigging' reactors. Doesn't this violate Murphy's Law and all the corollaries? Who thought this was a good idea and how the hell did he sell it?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:56 pm 
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Sterngard Friegen wrote:

The best explanation: TEPCO and the Japanese Government are lying.


In all fairness: they would not be the first to use the argument that shit will happen anyway and since nothing can be done to stop it from happening, let's do all we can to avoid panic. "Don't forget that we are on the Titanic and there are not enough lifeboats."

At the time of Chernobyl, some West European governments expressly used this "Titanic argument" to forbid their meteorologists from reporting that the prevailing wind in Eastern Europe would change from South East to West and the Chernoby cloud would probably hit Western Europe. Belgium's top meteorologist at the time, Armand Pien, a short time before his death confided that immediately after broadcasting on TV a forecast that the cloud would only hit the Balkans, he got new data which contradicted the forecast. Willing to go on the air again to tell people to stay indoors the next day (at the time of the normal re-broadcast in the late evening), he was ordered by a Belgian minister to keep his mouth shut, to avoid panic. A similar thing happened in the Netherlands.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3a9epTkjY8. Sorry chaps, I have no English translation, so I am not embedding, but once you realize that the red spot outside the H area is Chernobyl, you will understand what he is saying.)

Luckily, the cloud passed most of Western Euope without causing rain. The isolated areas where it did rain are still very much contaminated today - deep soil water got contaminated.

Part of the problem TESCO and the Japanese government have, may also be that they are faced with difficult choices at present. Like releasing the maximum radioactivity now that the winds are NW versus continuing to release light quantities for weeks to come. If those are the two alternatives, what government would dare to tell that to their population?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Well, they are now saying that contamination levels in Tokyo are ten to fifteen times higher than normal. If that is true, and it sounds alarmist enough to be true, this is not going to be like Chernobyl. Chernobyl produced radiation one thousand times higher than normal at the same distance and time.

Of course, there is really no such thing as safe radiation levels. One of the French cable TV stations (both CNN and BBC World Service are out of the air here now) mentioned the case of a young lady born at the beginning of 1987 in Corsica, always drank locally produced milk and lots of it, now diagnosed with thyroid cancer - probably Chernobyl-driven. No rain in Corsica during those fateful days, no area in Corsica where milk from cows, goats or sheep is automatically destroyed because of high radiation, ceasium or whatever. I would not eat mushrooms from woods in the Tokyo neighborhood, however.

Another news item was a government official saying that "only 5% of the radioactive material has leaked, proving that the structure is holding up better than we thought". Could be interpreted as "still 95% to go. Things could get 20 times worse before it gets better". And of course, Chernobyl's reactor 4 burned for 14 days and spent slightly more than 50% of its radioactive material. Oops - we are very lucky that the Japanese reactors are more modern models than the Chernobyl ones.

In view of what is happening, the following sentence from the Wikipedia article on Chernobyl, touched both my nerves and my heart:

"The International Project on the Health Effects of the Chernobyl Accident (IPEHCA) was created and received US $20 million, [highlight]mainly from Japan[/highlight], in hopes of discovering the main cause of health problems due to radiation."

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Suranis wrote:
Unconfirmed reports say that radiation levels inside the plant are too high for people to stay, and they are planning to dump coolant in through helicopters. That smacks of sensationalism to me though.


IIRC, after the explosion at Chernobyl, cement was dumped on the reactor from helicopters.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:43 pm 
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Meanwhile, something which is definitely putting out a huge plume of toxic material is still on fire: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/ ... 1720110314
Quote:
(Reuters) - Japan's Cosmo Oil has not yet extinguished a fire at its 220,000 barrels per day Chiba refinery, a company spokesman said on Monday.

The fire at the storage tanks broke out after a powerful earthquake rocked the country on Friday. The company shut down the refinery, east of Tokyo after the quake.

But it's petrochemical, so nobody in the media cares. Can't have something that makes the oil industry look bad, after all.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:16 pm 
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Highlands wrote:
Seriously, isn't the US Secretary of Energy a nuclear physicist? Why the fuck can't Steven Chu go on tv and explain this shit to idiots like me?


So I just flipped to the BBC America to watch the evening news when who do I see speaking about nuclear plants? Secretary Chu. The American media is a flaming pile of FAIL.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:19 pm 
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A "Global Energy Reporter" for Canada's Globe and Mail offers an interesting summary of the errors of design and errors of operation that have led to the present crisis. Meltdown looms as errors mount at Fukushima nuclear plant
Quote:
But the fundamental question is whether the global nuclear industry designs reactors to withstand a “perfect storm” situation, in which multiple calamities and human error conspire together to create what the industry calls a “low-probability, high-consequence event.”

Former nuclear regulator Linda Keen said the industry is often inadequately prepared.

“In my experience, I found the nuclear engineers extremely optimistic,” said Ms. Keen, former head of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission.

“They’re optimistic about everything: how fast they’re going to do things, the cost, the idea of whether you are going to have an accident or not.”

Ms. Keen – who chaired an international safety panel during her tenure – said that the industry can be too fixated on individual threats and unprepared to cope with the multiple disasters that are unlikely but can occur.

Despite the flaws in the English, this comment reminded me of what people are having to endure and having to face in the future while struggling to avert catastrophe:
Quote:
There was a 9.0(!!) earthquake , and 40 foot tnunami waves there. Tonite now, 50 remaining senior Japanese nuclear engineers are selling their lives to save there capital city of 30 million Tokyo. It's that bad. Don't point your wagging fingers now. Japanese will find a way. Pray/Hope/Wish for their success.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:40 pm 
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Quote:
Tonite now, 50 remaining senior Japanese nuclear engineers are selling their lives


Very brave and noble. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Pray for Japan.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:22 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:59 pm 
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poutine wrote:
Sterngard Friegen wrote:
The best explanation: TEPCO and the Japanese Government are lying.


Which is in keeping with TEPCO's past behavior in dealing with other, lesser crises. And, of course, in keeping with the tendency of all governments to lie.

When I read up on TEPCO's troubling past, I am amazed that more has not been done to rough up the company as a response to its past transgressions. While I claim no expertise on Japan's legal system, my rudimentary understanding is that tort law is essentially nonexistent in that country. Consequently, if government regulators fail to address violations of standards of conduct, there really are no other institutions within Japan with the means or motivation to do so. In our country and others, that is a role filled in by tort law, i.e., plaintiff lawyers.

Japan Inc. has operated for the benefit of corporations, especially large corporations. The social contract used to be that large corporations looked out for their employees; this was already changing as layoffs began to occur years ago. A good part of Japan Inc. operated through corruption, particularly in the awarding of government construction contracts, sometimes for work that simply did not have to be done. There was no interest whatsoever in punishing corporations for their transgressions. The whole point of government was to make sure that corporations were profitable.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:09 pm 
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kimba wrote:
Quote:
Tonite now, 50 remaining senior Japanese nuclear engineers are selling their lives


Very brave and noble. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Pray for Japan.

CNN Breaking News: -- Workers at Japan's damaged nuclear power plant have suspended operations and evacuated, chief Cabinet secretary says.

I think the plan is now to rely on helicopters to dump large quantities of sea water and boric acid. That is, whatever happens now is mostly out of human control. It seems as if it has been out of human control since the generators stopped.

Note that reactors 5 and 6 in the complex are also not operating normally; they are "cold" and were being used to store spent fuel rods, but problems are emerging there as well. A nuclear power plant without electricity is eventually doomed.

People are being told to stay inside their houses, with their air conditioners shut off. Of course, some of them have only shelters, with their houses destroyed. How long this will go on is unknown.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:10 pm 
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Not good...

Quote:
Breaking News Alert: Japanese officials pulling all workers from damaged nuclear plant
March 15, 2011 10:39:07 PM
----------------------------------------

The skeleton crew remaining at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is being evacuated because of the risk they face from dangerous radiation levels, a Japanese government spokesman said Wednesday morning.

http://link.email.washingtonpost.com/r/ ... I8HZS/E4/h

For more information, visit washingtonpost.com


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:40 am 
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Both dogs were rescued and taken to the closest animal shelter.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:31 am 
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The best live Japan updates w/ auto-refresh here: http://live.reuters.com/Event/Japan_earthquake2


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:48 am 
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Emperor Akihito has addressed the nation. He urged that people not give up hope. I believe that the Japanese Emperor has not done this since the last days of World War II.

TEPCO workers have returned or are returning to the Fukushima site. Presumably, radiation levels have fallen again. The helicopter delivery of sea water did not work, presumably because of high radiation levels directly above the reactor.

There is still no evidence on the grounds of Fukushima of nuclear experts from Japanese government agencies, nor is there any evidence of assistance from the International Atomic Energy Agency. The event is being left entirely in the corporation's hands, including most reporting of radiation levels.

Some foreign news crews have fled Japan, but the major networks are still reporting from there. On CNN at least, reporters are wearing radiation meters that have the ability to sound alarms as well as keep records.

In an act of silliness, Americans on the East Coast are buying potassium iodide tablets (health food stores). They will probably take them now, conferring no protection whatsoever to an event that has a very slim chance of occurring two weeks from now.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:20 am 
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Foreign Bankers Flee Tokyo As Nuclear Crisis Deepens
Foreign bankers are fleeing Tokyo as Japan's nuclear crisis worsens, scrambling for commercial and charter flights out of the country and into other major cities in the region.

Quote:
BNP Paribas, Standard Chartered, and Morgan Stanley were among the banks whose staff have left since Friday's earthquake and tsunami, and now a nuclear plant disaster, according to industry sources with direct knowledge of the matter.
...
"I got a request yesterday to fly 14 people from Tokyo to Hong Kong, 5 hour 5 minutes trip. They did not care about price," said Jackie Wu, COO of Hong Kong Jet, a newly established private jet subsidiary of China's HNA Group.

RADIATION FEARS

Radiation leaking from a crippled nuclear power plant spread panic across the country, emptying out Tokyo's normally bustling streets. Scores of flights to the city were halted and embassies warned citizens to leave or avoid the region.

The Tokyo-based International Bankers Association (IBA), which represents 16 major investment banks, issued a statement on Tuesday saying that none of them had closed business or ordered evacuations.


The image is of rats living leaving a sinking shape. The reality may be that living and business conditions in Tokyo have become much more difficult, with the mandated power outages playing a big role. I don't think these bankers have some special insight into the likelihood of a nuclear catastrophe.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:16 pm 
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Confusion reigns in the media as the U.S. Surgeon General commented favorably on reports that Americans in the West are buying anti-radiation pills as "a precaution." I checked the Surgeon General's website and there are no official news releases on this issue. In Arizona, meanwhile, stores are already running out of supplies:

Quote:
After news of radiation leaks in earthquake-battered Japan and the seeming possibility that things there could go from bad to far worse, Arizona shoppers are stocking up on a limited supply of potassium-iodide tablets. The pills are used as a safety precaution in the event of a nuclear accident because they help prevent radiation from accumulating in the thyroid gland, where it can cause cancer.

Buying the pills is likely to be an overreaction. The nuclear plants in Japan are far too distant to have any effect on the United States, experts say. Still, some shoppers seem to want the pills.

"The last three days, it's been crazy," said Cathy Worrow, who works at the Whole Foods store at Tatum and Shea boulevards in Phoenix. "I don't usually sell more than a few bottles, so we are out. People love a panic."


Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/ ... z1Gmgz8yKH

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:51 pm 
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Quote:
Analysis: Japan nuclear crisis reaches new levels

By Scott DiSavino

NEW YORK | Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:24pm EDT

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Japan's nuclear crisis may have taken its most dangerous turn yet after a U.S. official said one of the pools containing highly radioactive spent fuel rods at the stricken plant had run dry.

One nuclear expert said that there was now even a possibility that the disaster may approach the extent of the Chernobyl accident, the worst ever in the industry's history. When the Chernobyl plant in Ukraine exploded in 1986 it spewed a radiation cloud over a large area of Europe.

And a nuclear engineer said that it may be time to consider ways to bury or cover the entire complex in some kind of material that would stop radiation from leaking into the atmosphere.

Triggering the new levels of alarm were comments by U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Chairman Gregory Jaczko in Congress on Wednesday. "There is no water in the spent fuel pool and we believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures," he said.


more...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/ ... VN20110316


Radiation plume could reach Tokyo: U.S. scientists

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/ ... WX20110316


I saw one of those graphics from lfpress in my scribed feed on Radiation Exposure:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/50831289/Radiation-Exposure


Are they gonna bury it from helicopter? :-? I haven't heard anything about that, except as noted in the story above. I'm just wondering.

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