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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:27 am 
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Foggy wrote:
Sterngard Friegen wrote:
In each case it was money for a sick person.

That actually makes me feel much better. No, really. Dig it: I'm in an awful lot of pain without my intravenous Dilaudid. I want my hospital room and my nurses back. This is horrible, and it may be weeks before it gets any better. Oxycodone don't do shit. I got no sleep at all last night. Even going to the bathroom is a nightmare -- the damned walker doesn't fit through the doors except sideways. :-({|= :((

But ... I know I WILL recover eventually. I'll take this kind of sick over Orly's kind of sick any day of the week! \:D/

I'm so very glad to hear you are progressing towards recovery. But your incident has really shocked me. I mentioned earlier that I didn't know you did not have a health insurance policy on yourself. The system is fucked-up in our country and now you're fucked as un-insurable unless you re-enter a mid/large-sized corporation of employ, or jump hoops to get government assistance.

Viva USA!!! :roll:

Single-payer NOW!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:17 pm 
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Emma wrote:
Are you on oxycontin (sustained release) or immediate release oxy or both?

Both. Oxycontin 2x daily, immediate release (i.e., Percocet) every 6 hours.

Quote:
... ask if you can titrate the dose up a bit. You can always titrate down again later on as you continue to improve.

I'll do that.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Foggy wrote:
Emma wrote:
Are you on oxycontin (sustained release) or immediate release oxy or both?

Both. Oxycontin 2x daily, immediate release (i.e., Percocet) every 6 hours.

Quote:
... ask if you can titrate the dose up a bit. You can always titrate down again later on as you continue to improve.

I'll do that.


Percocet. That's some good stuff. It's been 15 years from my last dose but it sure does take away all the pain and cares away.

Get Well, Ole' Rooster!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:47 am 
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Emma wrote:
Foggy wrote:
Emma wrote:
Are you on oxycontin (sustained release) or immediate release oxy or both?

Both. Oxycontin 2x daily, immediate release (i.e., Percocet) every 6 hours.

Quote:
... ask if you can titrate the dose up a bit. You can always titrate down again later on as you continue to improve.

I'll do that.


Just my suggestion, I'd ask him too for plain oxycodone instead of percocet. It comes in 5 mg tablets, and he can titrate the dose to your pain level without concern for how much or how often you'd need to take it. Most often, I've seen it given as 5 - 10 mg every 3 hours or so, but some people need a higher dose and if that's what it takes, then he can order that for you.


Agreed. Tylenol can always be added by a patient if needed/wanted.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:42 am 
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I'll work on that.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:47 am 
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Foggy wrote:
I'll work on that.

There are a couple of references to medical literature on the dangers of Tylenol and its generic form at http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=5016&p=298121&hilit=liver#p298121.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:36 am 
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There have been many lawsuits over Tylenol's interaction with alcohol but the one that I found most interesting was sometime in the 90's when the plaintiff asked for full page ads to be taken out by Tylenol's maker in major newspapers in the entire US. These ads pointed clearly to the danger, made them admit they had known for years but actively worked to have the information held back. They ran for a couple of days and that was his entire award.

I would have made them do it twice a year for 10 years.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Tylenol is acetaminophen, right? What about ibuprofen, is that better?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Foggy wrote:
Tylenol is acetaminophen, right? What about ibuprofen, is that better?


Yes Tylenol is acetaminophen, (APAP) the CET in Percocet,

They work differently. Ibuprofen is a Non Steroidal Anti Inflammatory (NSAID) It works by reducing inflammation at the injury site. Aspirin is in this class. You have to watch the dosage with this as it does affect the liver but can affect the kidney.

You can look up the drug on web md

Web MD works - Ibuprofen pages - don't let the big list scare ya..

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:32 pm 
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NSAIDS can do a number on the GI tract. Read the labels and follow indicated dosing schedules.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:40 pm 
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Vitamin I isn't good for people with high blood pressure, either, darn it.

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 Post subject: Hijack this thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Foggy wrote:
Tylenol is acetaminophen, right? What about ibuprofen, is that better?


While I agree that there is risk with acetaminophen, as long as your doses don't exceed 650 mg 4 x daily, I personally believe that you will be fine (unless you have had liver problems in the past). Your doc wouldn't have prescribed a med with acetaminophen in it if you had an additional reason to avoid the med (unless your doc is unaware of previous liver problems).

Pretend Dr. Lisa says use acetaminophen as needed, but try to keep the dose as low as possible.

The push to ban OTC acetaminophen is, IMO, due to the fact that most Americans don't understand that OTC doesn't mean a drug isn't a drug or that they can take the maximum does for long periods of time. If the drug was truly unsafe, docs wouldn't prescribe meds with it in it at all.

Americans abuse acetaminophen. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used when appropriate and with appropriate caution.

One reason Americans overuse OTC pain meds that many docs won't prescribe adequate amounts of prescription pain relievers. I don't think that is a problem in Foghorn's case; his docs seem to be trying their darnedest to treat his pain as best they can. But docs are notorious for under-treating pain, thus, patients medicate themselves.

Foghorn, you just had every test known to medical science. Your doc knows how your liver is doing and appears to think that acetaminophen is safe for you at this time. Do what you need to do to control your pain, within the proper dosing guidelines. When in doubt, call your doc. If your pain doesn't respond, call your doc.

It is unlikely that your pain level is going to go below a 2-4 for a while. Staying ahead of the pain is critical. Stay in contact with your doc, and try to stay ahead of your pain as much as possible.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:43 pm 
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^^^^ =D> =D>

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:01 am 
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LM K wrote:
Foghorn, you just had every test known to medical science. Your doc knows how your liver is doing and appears to think that acetaminophen is safe for you at this time. Do what you need to do to control your pain, within the proper dosing guidelines. When in doubt, call your doc. If your pain doesn't respond, call your doc.

It is unlikely that your pain level is going to go below a 2-4 for a while. Staying ahead of the pain is critical. Stay in contact with your doc, and try to stay ahead of your pain as much as possible.


My posts were addressing the issue of pain not controlled, and that the added ingredient of tylenol in percocet would limit the amount he could take for breakthrough pain. I don't believe I said anything about banning OTC tylenol, but rather referenced an article that discussed the push to ban these prescription medications that combine tylenol with a narcotic and I did so within the context of the limitations of their use. At no point did I mean to imply he should disregard his doctor's directions; I had hoped I made that clear. That was something I considered before I posted, and wrestled with whether I should even bring it up. It's clear that I made a mistake in doing so.

I have nearly 30 years experience dealing with pain control in cancer patients and others with chronic --- and acute --- pain issues. I was hoping that my posts would give foggy some basic information on this subject that he could use in discussing this with his doctor, but I can see where it's been misinterpreted. With apologies to Foggy and others here, I'll bow out on this subject.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:47 am 
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Emma wrote:
I think it's best if I edit out everything I've said here and If you would, please edit your posts on this subject where I was quoted. Thanks :)

Nonsense. We don't need to reach a consensus here. Both of you (and several others) have valuable input. If there's some contradiction, I'll read the various versions to my doc and let him resolve them for me.

I sincerely appreciate all that y'all have written to try to help me get through this thing. Please don't anybody self-censor for any reason. I'm learning from all of you!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:26 am 
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Foggy, Someone gave you the advice to drink lots of water. Just be careful mate, you know what fish do in water.
Get well soon.
Regards..............Dick


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:39 am 
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Emma wrote:
I have nearly 30 years experience dealing with pain control in cancer patients and others with chronic --- and acute --- pain issues. I was hoping that my posts would give foggy some basic information on this subject that he could use in discussing this with his doctor, but I can see where it's been misinterpreted. With apologies to Foggy and others here, I'll bow out on this subject.


The pain discussion is extremely helpful for some of us non-Gallusians who suffer from chronic pain. I'm currently taking part in a Functional Restoration Program for chronic pain. Input on all kinds of therapies that people have tried/have experience with is welcome. Don't go! :((

Maybe we need a separate health/pain thread...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:45 am 
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See what I mean about valuable input? :lol:

I bet rajah never worked a day as a health professional, but look at the great advice he has! :hug:

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 Post subject: Hijack this thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:13 am 
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Foggy wrote:
Emma wrote:
I think it's best if I edit out everything I've said here and If you would, please edit your posts on this subject where I was quoted. Thanks :)

Nonsense. We don't need to reach a consensus here. Both of you (and several others) have valuable input. If there's some contradiction, I'll read the various versions to my doc and let him resolve them for me.

I sincerely appreciate all that y'all have written to try to help me get through this thing. Please don't anybody self-censor for any reason. I'm learning from all of you!


I also appreciate everyone's input on the "handling pain" discussion. I'm pain-free (or at least as pain free as I can be at my age) but that wasn't always the case. I was lucky that surgery restored my life after living in a pain-filled living hell that lasted for months. I am very aware that things can change in a heart beat and anyone of us could be faced with living with pain -- Foggy is an example of that. If Emma's or any other Fogbow member's input can help even one of person.....

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 Post subject: Hijack this thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:19 am 
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Emma wrote:
LM K wrote:
Foghorn, you just had every test known to medical science. Your doc knows how your liver is doing and appears to think that acetaminophen is safe for you at this time. Do what you need to do to control your pain, within the proper dosing guidelines. When in doubt, call your doc. If your pain doesn't respond, call your doc.

It is unlikely that your pain level is going to go below a 2-4 for a while. Staying ahead of the pain is critical. Stay in contact with your doc, and try to stay ahead of your pain as much as possible.


My posts were addressing the issue of pain not controlled, and that the added ingredient of tylenol in percocet would limit the amount he could take for breakthrough pain. I don't believe I said anything about banning OTC tylenol, but rather referenced an article that discussed the push to ban these prescription medications that combine tylenol with a narcotic and I did so within the context of the limitations of their use. At no point did I mean to imply he should disregard his doctor's directions; I had hoped I made that clear. That was something I considered before I posted, and wrestled with whether I should even bring it up. It's clear that I made a mistake in doing so.

I have nearly 30 years experience dealing with pain control in cancer patients and others with chronic --- and acute --- pain issues. I was hoping that my posts would give foggy some basic information on this subject that he could use in discussing this with his doctor, but I can see where it's been misinterpreted. With apologies to Foggy and others here, I'll bow out on this subject.


Hey Emma,

My comment wasn't directed at you personally; I was addressing the issue on a whole as it applied to Foghorn's situation. I honestly wasn't criticizing your comment at all; your info was very useful and helpful!!

I'm sorry!! [-o<

Please, please, please don't bow out of this topic! You have fantabulous info to share and do so fantabulously! :xo

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:20 am 
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rajah wrote:
Foggy, Someone gave you the advice to drink lots of water. Just be careful mate, you know what fish do in water.
Get well soon.
Regards..............Dick


=)) =)) =)) =)) =))

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 Post subject: Hijack this thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:22 am 
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Whatever4 wrote:
Emma wrote:
I have nearly 30 years experience dealing with pain control in cancer patients and others with chronic --- and acute --- pain issues. I was hoping that my posts would give foggy some basic information on this subject that he could use in discussing this with his doctor, but I can see where it's been misinterpreted. With apologies to Foggy and others here, I'll bow out on this subject.


The pain discussion is extremely helpful for some of us non-Gallusians who suffer from chronic pain. I'm currently taking part in a Functional Restoration Program for chronic pain. Input on all kinds of therapies that people have tried/have experience with is welcome. Don't go! :((

Maybe we need a separate health/pain thread...


That is an excellent idea!! Would one of our mods have the time to move some posts? If not, I can compile and quote posts into a massively big post. I wouldn't mind doing so.

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 Post subject: Hijack this thread
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:24 am 
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Foggy wrote:
I'm in an awful lot of pain without my intravenous Dilaudid. I want my hospital room and my nurses back. This is horrible, and it may be weeks before it gets any better. Oxycodone don't do shit. I got no sleep at all last night. Even going to the bathroom is a nightmare -- the damned walker doesn't fit through the doors except sideways. :-({|= :((


I'm so sorry to hear this, Foggy - and I can genuinely empathize with you - there are times I could have written that paragraph (well, except that I don't really miss my hospital room -but the nurses were pretty nice to have around *g*)

I am THRILLED, however, to hear that you're enough improved that they let you go home, and I hope that your recovery from here will be SWIFT!

The most important thing right now, though, is for you to take care of yourself - get enough rest, eat well, and (as much as is possible) avoid stress.

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

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 Post subject: Hijack this thread
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:21 am 
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Whatever4 wrote:
The pain discussion is extremely helpful for some of us non-Gallusians who suffer from chronic pain. I'm currently taking part in a Functional Restoration Program for chronic pain. Input on all kinds of therapies that people have tried/have experience with is welcome. Don't go! :((


Agreed, the pain discussion is helping me a lot, too. I'm had chronic pain most of my life, but for most of the last decade, it's been averaging about 4 or 5 on a daily basis, in spite of both extended release and immediate release for breakthrough narcotic pain meds - not to mention that the amount of pain and places where I have pain has been steadily been increasing... Seeing the suggestions of things to talk to doctors about or other ways of dealing with pain are very helpful, and at least give me hope that maybe there's still a solution out there for me that would let me get the pain down to maybe a 2 or 3. So, keep on posting ideas! :D

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 Post subject: Treating chronic pain
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:35 am 
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Foggy, I’m so sorry you have to go through this, but I’m glad you’re home. It’s true that docs do tend to under-treat pain as LMK said, even though pain is now classified as a vital sign. There are two reasons for this, first because of “seekers” who know exactly what to say to get loads of pain meds, and many of them actually sell the drugs instead of taking them. And seekers can be anyone, even LOLINADs, so they never know.

(Pronounced “Lolly-Nad”= Little old lady in no apparent distress.)


But the other reason is addiction. Narcotic pain meds, especially Oxycontin are highly addictive and I’ve seen patients that have had to be on large doses of it for a very long time actually have to go through detox to get off it.

Anyway, my problem with pain meds is that you just can’t direct them to the spot that hurts, plus they fog up your brain. When I had shoulder surgery it was the worst year of my life and I hated the drugs, plus they didn’t help anyway for more than a short time, and they fucked me up for a long time. What did help me were the Lidocaine patches. They were a more direct hit on the pain. If your pain is concentrated in your joints maybe that could help ease it off, but it’s not likely to help with generalized muscle pain. Has your doc discussed adding Gabapentin? MrDaisy says Gabapentin had had lots of success with pain treatment. (Or did someone already suggest that one? :-k )

:hug: :hug: :hug:

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