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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:20 am 
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There is a venerable American tradition of establishing "third parties" and running candidates for Federal offices on their tickets. They have the potential to siphon votes from candidates of the Democratic and Republican parties, although there is little evidence that they have often or ever changed the results of Presidential elections. For example, most analysts agree that Nader's run for the Presidency did not contribute to Gore's defeat and that Perot's run did not account for Clinton's win over George H. W. Bush.

I think of third parties as announcing the presence of fringe political groups that have the potential of reshaping the two major parties. An emerging third party is somewhat interesting in that regard: the Justice Party. Whether it succeeds in fielding candidates at the Presidential level remains to be seen; if it does so, it would seem to draw votes from the left.

Its nominee will be Rocky Anderson, former mayor of Salt Lake City. He is now Director of High Road for Human Rights and is clearly one of the most liberal of Utah's politicians. Others involved include Kevin Zeese (a peace activist) and Margaret Flowers (a pediatrician advocating for single-payer health care). For Flowers, see also.

So far, I have been able to find the proposed platform of the Justice Party only on the weird Web site, FourWinds10. It specializes in news about Prosperity Packs, the amazing Iraqi Dinar revaluation, alien saviors, and conspiracy theories of several kinds. I have sometimes found myself to be in agreement with a position taken in one of its articles (such as its opposition to the military detention law), just as I sometimes find myself in agreement with Ron Paul. FourWinds10 is consistently anti-Semitic and usually anti-Obama.

Despite that, its article on the platform of the Justice Party may be accurate. Listing only four of the 15 proposed "Platform issue areas," I find myself to be cheering them on and wishing that the Democratic Party would heed them. Many references are to October2011, an Occupy Washington Web site. The Justice Party may become the political favorite of the 99%/Occupy Wall Street movement, particularly if Democrats continue to pay little heed to the legitimate complaints of that movement.
Quote:
1. Corporatism - http://october2011.org/pages/corporatism firmly establish that money is not speech, corporations are not people, only people have Constitutional rights, end corporate influence over the political process, protect people and the environment from damage by corporations.
...
8. Healthcare – create a national, universal and publicly financed comprehensive health system.

9. Education – all people have the right to a high quality, publicly-funded and broad education from pre-school through vocational training or university.
...
11. Environment - http://october2011.org/blogs/kevin-zees ... ber2011org - adopt policies which effectively create a carbon-free and radio-active free energy economy and that respects the rights of nature.[*]

There will undoubtedly emerge other third party efforts before the 2012 election. It might be very interesting to track them, knowing full well that their candidates cannot win but might nevertheless influence the major parties.

[*] This concept may merit its own thread.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:45 pm 
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I think of third parties as announcing the presence of fringe political groups that have the potential of reshaping the two major parties.


Until we get the big money out of our political system, I don't see third parties going anywhere. Maybe rajah can explain the awesome system they have in Australia that has representatives in government from many different parties.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Highlands wrote:
Quote:
I think of third parties as announcing the presence of fringe political groups that have the potential of reshaping the two major parties.


Until we get the big money out of our political system, I don't see third parties going anywhere. Maybe rajah can explain the awesome system they have in Australia that has representatives in government from many different parties.


We will never have effective third parties as long as we have a single-member plurality election system. Such systems invariably lead to two party rule. This is one of the few findings of political science that can almost be called a scientific law, and it is in fact called Duverger's law.

Australia and most (if not all) Commonwealth countries have at least some proportional representation. In PR systems, the number of candidates from a party that get elected is proportional to the percentage of the vote they got. This way minority parties get some representation in legislative bodies. Since multiple parties get a presence, all parties can end up as minority parties, the largest of which usually is forced to form a coalition with other parties to establish control of the government. These coalitions often fall apart, forcing an election.

Establishing something like PR in the United States would be virtually impossible without fundamentally changing the way we do elections. It might be possible to establish something like "approval voting" here, though, in which one has a list of candidates and approves of as many as one chooses. Whoever gets the most "approves" wins. Perot would have received a lot more votes by that method, as many voters polled afterward stated that they would have voted for Perot if they thought "he could win."

There's a reluctance on the part of many voters to "throw their vote away," and a more rational fear that by voting for a third party, one actually contributes to the election of the horrible candidate on the other side who is the least palatable option (like a George W. Bush).

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:41 pm 
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I kinda liked Rocky when I lived in Utah. But this had FAIL written all over it.

Rocky Anderson forms Justice Party, plans to run for president
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... ident.html
Quote:
SALT LAKE CITY — Former Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson has formed a new political party and plans to run for president.

To be known as the Justice Party, Anderson sees it as a grassroots movement that over the long term will bring about the shift in American politics that he says citizens crave.

"The people are the ones who always bring about major change in this country, and we need to provide that power to people throughout the country," he said Wednesday on KSL Radio's Doug Wright Show.

They chose the name by voting on his FaceBook page.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:46 pm 
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:D

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:25 pm 
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I'm in the exploratory stages of forming a Plutodog Party. I am exploring whether folks will send me strings-free currency or consideration non-deductible donations. Should this be the case in sufficient quantity (still working on what that would amount to), I will know that it is a viable party concept. Feel free to PM me with your generous offer(s) and I will provide you with a SASE or sumpin'.

:hug: Give 'til it doesn't hurt no more, folks! :hug:

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:43 pm 
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Plutodog wrote:
I'm in the exploratory stages of forming a Plutodog Party. I am exploring whether folks will send me strings-free currency or consideration non-deductible donations. Should this be the case in sufficient quantity (still working on what that would amount to), I will know that it is a viable party concept. Feel free to PM me with your generous offer(s) and I will provide you with a SASE or sumpin'.

:hug: Give 'til it doesn't hurt no more, folks! :hug:


Dick Marple says not to take a check - only gold!

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:49 pm 
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If you're employed with the Oregon Department of Fish & Game this could set up a titanic confrontation with John Dummett.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:55 pm 
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Fish & Game. PD, does it pay better over there? Do I have to lose weight before I can get a better health insurance rate?

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:05 pm 
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Fish and Game??? [-X I'm not feeling the love here, people! :-?

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  • I know that there are no limits to which the powers of privilege will not go to keep the workers in slavery.
  • My friends, it is solidarity of labor we want. We do not want to find fault with each other, but to solidify our forces and say to each other: “We must be together; our masters are joined together and we must do the same thing.”
  • Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living.
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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:14 pm 
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Plutodog wrote:
Fish and Game??? [-X I'm not feeling the love here, people! :-?

Snap out of it! This is from the biography of Mr. Dummett, and includes only 1 of about 10 typos on the biography page from his website:
Quote:
Work
California Department of Fish and Staff Programmer Analyst

http://johndummett4president.webs.com/biography.htm

It could be worse for a 'Dog. You could have been in the Department of Fish and Staff. And you know how much those staffs can hurt.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:31 pm 
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Oh. :oops:

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  • I know that there are no limits to which the powers of privilege will not go to keep the workers in slavery.
  • My friends, it is solidarity of labor we want. We do not want to find fault with each other, but to solidify our forces and say to each other: “We must be together; our masters are joined together and we must do the same thing.”
  • Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living.
—Mother Jones


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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:35 pm 
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I'll still vote for PD over JD. But I think it should be called "The Goal Post is Too Damn High" Party.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Is there any chance of one of those four platform planks making it into the Democratic Party platform? My guess is "no," which is a shame.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:54 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
Is there any chance of one of those four platform planks making it into the Democratic Party platform? My guess is "no," which is a shame.

Any one of them would cut them off from unlimited corporate funding...

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  • I know that there are no limits to which the powers of privilege will not go to keep the workers in slavery.
  • My friends, it is solidarity of labor we want. We do not want to find fault with each other, but to solidify our forces and say to each other: “We must be together; our masters are joined together and we must do the same thing.”
  • Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living.
—Mother Jones


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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:00 pm 
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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:07 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
Is there any chance of one of those four platform planks making it into the Democratic Party platform? My guess is "no," which is a shame.

One of which platform planks, Tollie?

Link for Rikker an old geezer? Image

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:17 pm 
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See first post in thread.

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  • I know that there are no limits to which the powers of privilege will not go to keep the workers in slavery.
  • My friends, it is solidarity of labor we want. We do not want to find fault with each other, but to solidify our forces and say to each other: “We must be together; our masters are joined together and we must do the same thing.”
  • Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living.
—Mother Jones


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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Sterngard Friegen wrote:
One of which platform planks, Tollie?

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=6924#p312749

In brief, they concern corporatism, education, health care, and the environment. All of those four would be opposed not only by corporate interests but also by many politicians in the Democratic Party -- supporting them would cut off much of their funding.

A funny thing about the Obama campaign is that it was not (primarily) funded by the rich and powerful. It was funded by people like me. That gave me hope.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:32 pm 
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OK. Thanks. At my age scrolling up is not something I do without prior planning.

I like that platform. Based on the omissions I suspect there are others I wouldn't. Is there one in there to disembowel anyone who uses "Esq." after his/her name? Despite losing a lot of my friends that way, I would generally be in favor of it.

Not a death threat.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:06 pm 
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The proposed planks of the platform are listed at FourWinds10. They must be somewhere else, but so far, this seems to be the most convenient source. I do caution against exploring much of the FourWinds10 Web site.

The other proposed planks concern
    Wars and militarism
    Human rights
    Worker rights and jobs
    Government
    Elections
    Criminal justice and prisons
    Housing
    Finance and the economy
    Media
    Food and water
    Transportation

Using updated language, these planks are largely what I had thought the national Democratic Party stood for in the time of FDR and subsequent liberal leaders. They would make a strongly liberal platform for today. For example, the criminal justice and prisons plank is:
Quote:
end private for-profit prisons, adopt evidence-based drug policy, prisoners have the right to humane and just conditions with a focus on rehabilitation and reintegration into society, abolish the death penalty.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:22 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
The proposed planks of the platform are listed at FourWinds10. They must be somewhere else, but so far, this seems to be the most convenient source. I do caution against exploring much of the FourWinds10 Web site.

:shock: I can see why. There is a portentously lengthy post under the title "Is Germany responsible for the financial crisis?" and it all turns out to be the fault of the Jooos:
Quote:
Although their enemies thought they would destroy the two Empires and occupy them, Germany especially defended herself unexpectedly well. In the end, the dictate of Versailles demanded loss of regions and astronomical reparation payments, but Germany continued to exist as a state. With Hitler there came a statesman who succeeded in freeing Germany step by step from this catastrophic situation. This brought the first signs that a new war would start. (Some things are seen as proof that Hitler was primarily, systematically supported by Germany’s enemies in order to have a justification for a destructive war. This, however, cannot be discussed here in detail.) England, France and the USA did everything to make a war happen (what the Allies also deny today). The activator was the conflict with Poland. This state was newly founded after World War I and had been given large areas that were former German territory. The German minority was brutally harassed. Poland tried to force new territories from Germany by continually threatening war. This attitude of Poland was backed and supported by England with a promise to protect her in case of a war. Germany declared war on Poland after provocations and crimes (e.g. mass murder of Germans) reached a level that no sovereign state can tolerate. Thereupon England and France declared war on Germany, the 40-some peace offerings made by Hitler since the beginning of the war having been declined, and this also is concealed today. In the end, Germany was destructively beaten by an unbelievably superior enemy. The Nazis did know that they could not win, but the Germans fought desperately because they knew that the enemy was remorseless. All cities with more than 60,000 inhabitants were destroyed by bombs. Millions of Germans were slain, burnt alive, raped and expelled, and the country was occupied. The allies took all that was left, first of all advanced technology and patents. The Germans are held responsible for terrible crimes. Through all the media and educational institutions that were first closed and then re-opened under the control of the allies, the accusations are constantly repeated but it is forbidden by law to discuss the topic freely. (Up till today it remains forbidden to talk freely about the so-called “Holocaust” and to research it scientifically; thousands of people are in jail for “the denial of the Holocaust” – a thought crime, and this not only in Germany.) Through a re-education program that was created mainly by Jewish scientists, ideologists and politicians, the German nation was forced to take the exclusive responsibility for World War II, and for many other crimes besides.

http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_data ... 1322936166

Those poor, misunderstood, put upon, benevolent Nazis.

Gagggh.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:41 pm 
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Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Those poor, misunderstood, put upon, benevolent Nazis.

Gagggh.

Every time that I have looked, there is something of that nature there. Some of the links off the FourWinds10 site are to places that I would not venture outside of a sandbox. THE ILLUSTRATED PROTOCOLS OF ZION takes you to the Web site of "Brother Nathanael Kapner," who is said to be an ex-Jew and is now an Orthodox street evangelist praised by rense.com and stormfront. So a venture into the land of FourWinds10 is at risk of finding some of the most hateful material on the Web. Then they publish the 15 proposed planks of the Justice Party as well as a sensible article Poverty and Racism Fuel HIV/AIDS Epidemic in U.S. supporting President Obama's plan for a domestic HIV/AIDS program. I find their Web site very confusing.

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:20 pm 
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If only kucinich decided to run third party... I'd vote for him in a second.... but I guess it's not really possible :(

Ah well, if Ron Paul loses he may very well run third party, and if this happens be prepared for an entertaining election... and Donald trump! Please oh please run [-o< \:D/

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 Post subject: Third parties 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:08 pm 
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If Ron Paul is gaining on Romney in New Hampshire but nevertheless loses (while Santorum sinks deeper into the frothy mix), this might further encourage Paul to run as a third party candidate. IMHO, that would be a good thing for the country. It would be Clinton-G.H.W. Bush-Perot all over again, an Obama wipeout, this time with a majority of the votes. Unfortunately, what came out of the Republican Party after that was George W. Bush.

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