Falsehoods unchallenged only fester and grow.


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1089 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 ... 44  Next   
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:30 pm
Posts: 2912
Location: The Great Pariah State of Arizona
See also Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507 (2004) (taking CB's argument and obliterating it, with the sole exception of Justice Thomas.) For God's sake, this is Scalia's dissenting opinion:

Quote:
Petitioner, a presumed American citizen, has been imprisoned without charge or hearing in the Norfolk and Charleston Naval Brigs for more than two years, on the allegation that he is an enemy combatant who bore arms against his country for the Taliban. His father claims to the contrary, that he is an inexperienced aid worker caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. This case brings into conflict the competing demands of national security and our citizens' constitutional right to personal liberty. Although I share the Court's evident unease as it seeks to reconcile the two, I do not agree with its resolution.

Where the Government accuses a citizen of waging war against it, our constitutional tradition has been to prosecute him in federal court for treason or some other crime. Where the exigencies of war prevent that, the Constitution's Suspension Clause, Art. I, §9, cl. 2, allows Congress to relax the usual protections temporarily. Absent suspension, however, the Executive's assertion of military exigency has not been thought sufficient to permit detention without charge. No one contends that the congressional Authorization for Use of Military Force, on which the Government relies to justify its actions here, is an implementation of the Suspension Clause. Accordingly, I would reverse the decision below.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


"What part of 'second' don't you understand?" -Judge Morrison England


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 2184
Location: The Little Red Dot
Occupation: ASEAN bureau chief; Keeper of the Bahasa; CSI for Semiconductors
poutine wrote:
See also Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507 (2004) (taking CB's argument and obliterating it, with the sole exception of Justice Thomas.) For God's sake, this is Scalia's dissenting opinion:

Quote:
Petitioner, a presumed American citizen, has been imprisoned without charge or hearing in the Norfolk and Charleston Naval Brigs for more than two years, on the allegation that he is an enemy combatant who bore arms against his country for the Taliban. His father claims to the contrary, that he is an inexperienced aid worker caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. This case brings into conflict the competing demands of national security and our citizens' constitutional right to personal liberty. Although I share the Court's evident unease as it seeks to reconcile the two, I do not agree with its resolution.

Where the Government accuses a citizen of waging war against it, our constitutional tradition has been to prosecute him in federal court for treason or some other crime. Where the exigencies of war prevent that, the Constitution's Suspension Clause, Art. I, §9, cl. 2, allows Congress to relax the usual protections temporarily. Absent suspension, however, the Executive's assertion of military exigency has not been thought sufficient to permit detention without charge. No one contends that the congressional Authorization for Use of Military Force, on which the Government relies to justify its actions here, is an implementation of the Suspension Clause. Accordingly, I would reverse the decision below.



I'm not sure this can be applied to the situation of targeting Al-Awlaki. If one of your citizens is leading a military organization that is engaged against you, I think it should be pretty clear that it's OK to target them and "shoot back."

I do agree with you that I have concerns about the legal process needed to do this. Cheney and Bush did a lot of damage to the US by their flagrant violations of US law, and I don't want someone like them being able to use this as a precedent to target individuals they just don't happen to like. I'd like to think that the Obama team, whom I see as having much more integrity that the Bush cabal, has taken whatever steps are necessary to ensure that there is clear legal precedent in this case.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:30 pm
Posts: 2912
Location: The Great Pariah State of Arizona
Somerset wrote:
I'm not sure this can be applied to the situation of targeting Al-Awlaki. If one of your citizens is leading a military organization that is engaged against you, I think it should be pretty clear that it's OK to target them and "shoot back."


In which case there should be no fear of presenting articulable facts to a FISA court to ensure judicial review of the decision.

In any event, I don't believe the 8 justices who rejected the argument that war alone eliminates a citizen's due process rights would agree with you that Ramdi doesn't apply to Al-Awlaki. Some process is due. The justices can quibble over how much is due, but they clearly agree that process is due (with Justice Thomas dissenting, CB can take solace in that.)

Quote:
I do agree with you that I have concerns about the legal process needed to do this. Cheney and Bush did a lot of damage to the US by their flagrant violations of US law, and I don't want someone like them being able to use this as a precedent to target individuals they just don't happen to like. I'd like to think that the Obama team, whom I see as having much more integrity that the Bush cabal, has taken whatever steps are necessary to ensure that there is clear legal precedent in this case.


Obama hasn't. Unless there's some super duper secret FISA proceeding none of us know about. A tremendous weakness of the already-rejected Bush argument that applies to Al-Awliki is that he has been scurrying around for years. There is no exigent circumstance requiring his death without judicial review.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


"What part of 'second' don't you understand?" -Judge Morrison England


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:30 pm
Posts: 2912
Location: The Great Pariah State of Arizona
Correction: The Bush administration never authorized or pursued the targeted killing of any American citizen. This is purely an Obama development.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


"What part of 'second' don't you understand?" -Judge Morrison England


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 pm
Posts: 9708
Curious Blue wrote:
I haven't followed the Al-Awlaki situation -- but if he is affiliated with Al Qaeda, then he is as much a target as any other combatant. I don't get this concept that somehow American citizens are cloaked in some sort of special "due process" protection that means they can somehow join an army at war with the US and be exempt from the ordinary consequences of being at war with the US.


What's "affiliated?" We can just murder someone because they gave a cab ride to someone in al-Qaeda? At what point does your "rule" become "the President can kill anyone he feels like at any time for any reason?"

_________________
"[T]he American people, taking one with another, constitute the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered together under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages, and. . .they grow more timorous, more sniveling, more poltroonish, more ignominious every day." H.L. Mencken


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Posts: 13776
Location: New England
Occupation: Professor of Sociology
CagedPrisoners LTD presents itself as a human rights organization with an Islamic focus. It was founded in London by Moazzam Begg, who was released from Guantamano over the objections of the CIA, Pentagon, and FBI. It was recently famous for an alliance with Amnesty International in a controversy described by Wikipedia:
Quote:
In February 2010, Amnesty International suspended one of its senior officials, Gita Sahgal, head of the organisation's Gender Unit, after she criticized Amnesty for its links with Begg and Cageprisoners. She called the links "a gross error of judgment", and said it was wrong to ally with "Britain's most famous supporter of the Taliban". Sahgal argued that by associating itself with Begg and Cageprisoners, Amnesty is risking its reputation on human rights. Salman Rushdie said: "Amnesty ... has done its reputation incalculable damage by allying itself with Moazzam Begg and his group Cageprisoners, and holding them up as human rights advocates. Journalist Nick Cohen wrote in The Observer: "Amnesty ... thinks that liberals are free to form alliances with defenders of clerical fascists who want to do everything in their power to suppress liberals, most notably liberal-minded Muslims."

It is in the news again for [warning: graphic] BREAKING NEWS: BARACK OBAMA IS DEAD
Quote:
American War Criminal Barack Obama has been killed by Pakistani security forces in the UK, Prime Minister Hasan Abdullah of Pakistan has said.

_________________
"Someone should tell Mrs. Reagan that young people -- not even young people on drugs -- are not the ones responsible for the major problems besetting the world!" John Irving, A Prayer for Owen Meany: A Novel, p. 370.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:41 pm
Posts: 6493
Location: Edmonds, WA
SuEdB wrote:
I guess the Pakistanis think about that on occasion when they are flying their AMERICAN made, bought, and paid for F-16 Fighter Fleet to repel the foreign devils. Lots of pilost are thankful when they fly them against the Chinese junk the Indian Air Forces bought.


Ummm.

The front-line fighter the PAF uses is the Chinese-made Chengdu F-7 (180).followed by the French-made Dassault Mirage III (100) and Dassault Mirage 5 (60). They also used to use the Chinese Nanchang A-5, and are co-developing with the Chinese the JF-17 Thunder (40 are now being used). They only have 63 F-16's, though they plan to buy 18 more.

In training, they have one domestic trainer, the MFI-17 Mushshak. They also have a Chinese/Pakistan trainer, the K-8 Karakorum, and two Chinese trainers, the Shenyang FT-5 and FT-6, and one US trainer, the T-37 Tweet

Jet transports include the Airbus A310, US-made Cessna Citation V, Gulfstream IV, Brazilian-made Embraer Phenom, and USSR-made Illyushin Il-78. Prop transports are the US made C-12 and C-130, the Spanish CASA CN-235, the Chinese Harbin Y-12, and the Swedish Saab 2000

Helicopters include the Russian Mil Mi-17, the French Alouette III, and the US Bell AH-1 Cobra. Their special mission aircraft (EW and AWACS) are the French Dassault Falcon 20, Saab 2000, and the Chinese ZDK-03

As for the Indian Air Force, they don't have any Chinese aircraft in their inventory. Almost all their combat aircraft are Soviet Union and Russian made, with the French Mirage 2000 and domestic HAL Tejas rounding it up. Their bombers are the USSR-made MiG-27 and the French/UK Jaguar. Trainers are the locally made HAL-HPT-32 and HJT-16, and the UK-made BAE Hawk. Transports are a mix of Brazilian-made, US-made, UK-made, and USSR-made. AWACS is the Russian-made Il-76, with Il-78's in the tanker role. Helicopters are domestic, USSR, and French. They also have domestic-made and Israeli-made UAV's

_________________
Bad Fiction - The Intersection of Bad Movies and Worse Politics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 3:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:30 pm
Posts: 2912
Location: The Great Pariah State of Arizona
The latest edition of The New Yorker has an outstanding history of the relationship between the United States and Pakistan/India, dating back to World War 2 (India gained independence, and Pakistan was created, in 1947). The simplest summary of it is that the US engaged in a series of sheer blunders in its foreign policy calculations, and rather than correcting those blunders as time went on and new Presidents were elected, we continued compounding them. We thought Pakistan would be a rising economic star bursting with democratic goodness, but it turns out India was. Moreover, Pakistan consistently lied to us, cheated the rules, and did things to hurt us (like negotiating with Al Qaeda for the purchase of their nuclear weapons technology), but we simply rewarded that behavior.

Today, we send them $3 billion a year, the bulk of which is eaten up by their nuclear defense system which has nothing whatsoever to do with their promise to help us fight terrorism. Their incompetent military has been weakened by the diversion of funds to the nuclear program, which helps explain why the country is now overrun by Arab terrorists.

I really recommend a read of that article. Don't think it's available for free online though.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


"What part of 'second' don't you understand?" -Judge Morrison England


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 4:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:52 am
Posts: 3946
Location: Switzerland
TollandRCR wrote:
It is in the news again for [warning: graphic] BREAKING NEWS: BARACK OBAMA IS DEAD
Quote:
American War Criminal Barack Obama has been killed by Pakistani security forces in the UK, Prime Minister Hasan Abdullah of Pakistan has said.


http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-work/o ... rack-obama
There is also a followup editorial cause some people seem to have missed the satirical aspects:
Quote:
Clarification of Cageprisoners piece on the fictional killing of Barack Obama
Written by CP Editor
Wednesday, 11 May 2011

Quote:
While many have read the Cageprisoners article in the spirit it was written, there are some who have chosen to ignore the satire.

Cageprisoners is a human rights NGO dedicated to due process and rule of law. We unequivocally condemn extrajudicial killings, regardless of who they are against. Indeed, the purpose of this piece was to highlight that very fact.

The article went further to court controversy by suggesting that the fictional burial of Barack Obama be done in a way that would be distasteful to those of the Christian faith. Again, the purpose was to highlight the sense of outrage in the Muslim world, that Muslims were being told that the manner in which Osama Bin Laden’ body was disposed of was somehow dignified, acceptable and in accordance with Islamic teachings and practices.

It was clear that this was a satirical piece highlighting the fact that the episode raised many questions which were pertinent to the application of the rule of law and international norms and principles. It was not in any way as some have alleged a wish or notice of intention. This is a distorted reading of the article and reflective of the Islamophobic lens through which Muslim writers are seen. The limited opportunity to engage in a rational and reasoned debate without being accused of supporting terrorism caused us to sanction the use of satire to highlight the issues. It was a difficult decision and there was always a danger that the piece would be deliberately misconstrued.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 4:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:30 pm
Posts: 2912
Location: The Great Pariah State of Arizona
cageprisoners.com wrote:
This is a distorted reading of the article and reflective of the Islamophobic lens through which Muslim writers are seen.


Really? I recall being equally outraged, personally, when a British playwright authored some drama about the killing of President Bush. I simply do not believe that this is an appropriate subject for discussion for trivial purposes like entertainment, or "satire," given the tremendously sad relationship the American people have with the assassinations of their greatest leaders. It's not funny. It's not effective satire. And the comparison is flawed and full of holes in the first place.

The editor goes on to write:

Quote:
It seems that freedom of expression and satire are the preserves of a few.


Other than people harshly criticizing the article, I haven't seen any calls for government censorship. So, what the editor labels as an attack on his "freedom of expression" is actually just other people exercising their freedom of expression. I guess he believes only he is entitled to such freedom.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


"What part of 'second' don't you understand?" -Judge Morrison England


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:22 am
Posts: 6692
Location: downstairs
Here it is:

The Double Game
The unintended consequences of American funding in Pakistan.
by Lawrence Wright



poutine wrote:
The latest edition of The New Yorker has an outstanding history of the relationship between the United States and Pakistan/India, dating back to World War 2 (India gained independence, and Pakistan was created, in 1947).

_________________
I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it.--Voltaire


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Posts: 13776
Location: New England
Occupation: Professor of Sociology
Quote:
American War Criminal Barack Obama has been killed by Pakistani security forces in the UK, Prime Minister Hasan Abdullah of Pakistan has said.

http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-work/o ... rack-obama
Quote:
Clarification of Cageprisoners piece on the fictional killing of Barack Obama
Written by CP Editor
Wednesday, 11 May 2011
...
This is a distorted reading of the article and reflective of the Islamophobic lens through which Muslim writers are seen. The limited opportunity to engage in a rational and reasoned debate without being accused of supporting terrorism caused us to sanction the use of satire to highlight the issues. It was a difficult decision and there was always a danger that the piece would be deliberately misconstrued.

Islamophobic lens my foot. I am not deliberately misconstruing what the author meant to say: he meant to say that Barack Obama is a war criminal who deserves assassination.

Edit: Interesting but not surprising that the editor quotes Chomsky:
Quote:
As Noam Chomsky recently wrote in his article,

“We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region.”


I hope reader reaction to this episode shuts down this hate-filled rag.

_________________
"Someone should tell Mrs. Reagan that young people -- not even young people on drugs -- are not the ones responsible for the major problems besetting the world!" John Irving, A Prayer for Owen Meany: A Novel, p. 370.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:30 pm
Posts: 2912
Location: The Great Pariah State of Arizona
Adelante wrote:
Here it is:

The Double Game
The unintended consequences of American funding in Pakistan.
by Lawrence Wright

poutine wrote:
The latest edition of The New Yorker has an outstanding history of the relationship between the United States and Pakistan/India, dating back to World War 2 (India gained independence, and Pakistan was created, in 1947).


Yep, that's it, thanks.

I don't understand why we're not tying strings to our aid. If we're funding their military, we should have a say in how it's spent.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


"What part of 'second' don't you understand?" -Judge Morrison England


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:42 am
Posts: 2303
Location: left coast
Occupation: NOTICE: I am on this board for the purpose of intelligent discussion. If you disagree with my point of view and want to discuss and debate ideas in a civil and respectful manner, I am happy to engage and participate. But if you want to make things personal through insults, ad hominem, and deliberately mischaracterizing what I have said -- sorry, I won't engage with trolls.
poutine wrote:
Curious Blue wrote:
The 5th amendment provides for prosecution of CRIMES -- it does not govern how we fight WARS. I'd note that the 5th amendment is not limited to "citizens" -- it refers to "persons", whether they are citizens or not.

You don't seem to get the difference between criminal procedure and war.


You're dead wrong, notwithstanding the arrogance of your tone.


I'm setting you to "ignore" so I won't be bothering responding to you after this one post. I don't have time for tantrums.

Quote:
But rather than my wasting time trying to educate you, I suggest readers check the Supreme Court's rulings in Hamdan, Padilla and related progeny to understand the flat rejection by the courts of the notion that "war" alone trumps constitutional principles under all circumstances,


Hamdan & Padilla apply to treatment and detention of prisoners. Once an enemy is captured, they are hors de combat -- that is, out of battle -- and generally subject to appropriate treatment as a prisoner of war. (Padilla is distinguishable because it is a stretch to claim he was ever akin to a soldier on the battlefield - he was apprehended at an airport in Chicago). Hamdan - who is a citizen of Yemen - was captured in Afghanistan -- I don't know the circumstances of his capture, but depending on when and where they found him, it may have been perfectly appropriate to target and shoot him. He was Osama Bin Laden's personal driver, so I would think that any car he happened to be driving in Afghanistan would have been a very good military target.

The Hamdan & Padilla cases were mostly about the Bush administration's attempt to carve out a new category of "enemy combatant" that is outside the ordinary laws of war -- that is, individuals that could be detained indefinitely as prisoners being classified as neither prisoners of war nor criminal detainees. That didn't wash --but the Obama administration has never followed that rationale, and has at all times agreed that captured Al Qaeda or Taliban are prisoners of war.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:42 am
Posts: 2303
Location: left coast
Occupation: NOTICE: I am on this board for the purpose of intelligent discussion. If you disagree with my point of view and want to discuss and debate ideas in a civil and respectful manner, I am happy to engage and participate. But if you want to make things personal through insults, ad hominem, and deliberately mischaracterizing what I have said -- sorry, I won't engage with trolls.
A Legal Lohengrin wrote:
Curious Blue wrote:
I haven't followed the Al-Awlaki situation -- but if he is affiliated with Al Qaeda, then he is as much a target as any other combatant. I don't get this concept that somehow American citizens are cloaked in some sort of special "due process" protection that means they can somehow join an army at war with the US and be exempt from the ordinary consequences of being at war with the US.


What's "affiliated?" We can just murder someone because they gave a cab ride to someone in al-Qaeda?


I simply meant that if he is an active participant of Al Qaeda, which the US apparently believes him to be. See http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-E ... overstated


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:30 pm
Posts: 2912
Location: The Great Pariah State of Arizona
Curious Blue wrote:
I'm setting you to "ignore" so I won't be bothering responding to you after this one post. I don't have time for tantrums.


If this is your method of avoiding admitting that you were wrong, by all means.

Quote:
Hamdan & Padilla apply to treatment and detention of prisoners. Once an enemy is captured, they are hors de combat -- that is, out of battle -- and generally subject to appropriate treatment as a prisoner of war. (Padilla is distinguishable because it is a stretch to claim he was ever akin to a soldier on the battlefield - he was apprehended at an airport in Chicago). Hamdan - who is a citizen of Yemen - was captured in Afghanistan -- I don't know the circumstances of his capture, but depending on when and where they found him, it may have been perfectly appropriate to target and shoot him. He was Osama Bin Laden's personal driver, so I would think that any car he happened to be driving in Afghanistan would have been a very good military target.

The Hamdan & Padilla cases were mostly about the Bush administration's attempt to carve out a new category of "enemy combatant" that is outside the ordinary laws of war -- that is, individuals that could be detained indefinitely as prisoners being classified as neither prisoners of war nor criminal detainees. That didn't wash --but the Obama administration has never followed that rationale, and has at all times agreed that captured Al Qaeda or Taliban are prisoners of war.


Which completely sidesteps the issue. The Bush administration could see the writing on the wall as far as Padilla was concerned: an American citizen who the President deemed to be an enemy combatant not entitled to any due process protections because of his affiliation with Al Qaeda, which is the mirror argument you have asserted. The Supreme Court avoided ruling on that argument on procedural grounds, but it was only a matter of time before it was going to lay the smackdown on the Administration. So, Bush preempted a litigation defeat by surrendering his position and agreeing to subject Padilla to judicial process after all. He was tried, in a courtroom.

I don't see a response by you to Ramdi.

And I don't see a response by you to the fact that there is no practical reason not to allow judicial review.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


"What part of 'second' don't you understand?" -Judge Morrison England


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:42 pm
Posts: 3435
Location: The 808
Occupation: World-class procrastinator and perpetual late-bloomer.
poutine wrote:
Curious Blue wrote:
I'm setting you to "ignore" so I won't be bothering responding to you after this one post. I don't have time for tantrums.


If this is your method of avoiding admitting that you were wrong, by all means.

Quote:
Hamdan & Padilla apply to treatment and detention of prisoners. Once an enemy is captured, they are hors de combat -- that is, out of battle -- and generally subject to appropriate treatment as a prisoner of war. (Padilla is distinguishable because it is a stretch to claim he was ever akin to a soldier on the battlefield - he was apprehended at an airport in Chicago). Hamdan - who is a citizen of Yemen - was captured in Afghanistan -- I don't know the circumstances of his capture, but depending on when and where they found him, it may have been perfectly appropriate to target and shoot him. He was Osama Bin Laden's personal driver, so I would think that any car he happened to be driving in Afghanistan would have been a very good military target.

The Hamdan & Padilla cases were mostly about the Bush administration's attempt to carve out a new category of "enemy combatant" that is outside the ordinary laws of war -- that is, individuals that could be detained indefinitely as prisoners being classified as neither prisoners of war nor criminal detainees. That didn't wash --but the Obama administration has never followed that rationale, and has at all times agreed that captured Al Qaeda or Taliban are prisoners of war.


Which completely sidesteps the issue. The Bush administration could see the writing on the wall as far as Padilla was concerned: an American citizen who the President deemed to be an enemy combatant not entitled to any due process protections because of his affiliation with Al Qaeda, which is the mirror argument you have asserted. The Supreme Court avoided ruling on that argument on procedural grounds, but it was only a matter of time before it was going to lay the smackdown on the Administration. So, Bush preempted a litigation defeat by surrendering his position and agreeing to subject Padilla to judicial process after all. He was tried, in a courtroom.

I don't see a response by you to Ramdi.

And I don't see a response by you to the fact that there is no practical reason not to allow judicial review.


How could such judicial review take place? The absence of the accused would seem to present a major hurdle, and I was not aware that there was anything in either current law or the Constitution that would provide for in-absentia, appeal-less, capital cases.

That's an honest question, by the way. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not an expert in international law. I've yet to see a possible solution to the problem posed by Al-Awlaki that does not trouble me to some degree.

_________________
"If it was a legitimately stolen election, Romney's body would have had ways of shutting that down. Also, if a usurpation happens, even in that horrible situation of a stolen election, it was God's will." -A Legal Lohengrin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:30 pm
Posts: 2912
Location: The Great Pariah State of Arizona
Mikedunford wrote:
How could such judicial review take place? The absence of the accused would seem to present a major hurdle, and I was not aware that there was anything in either current law or the Constitution that would provide for in-absentia, appeal-less, capital cases.

That's an honest question, by the way. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not an expert in international law. I've yet to see a possible solution to the problem posed by Al-Awlaki that does not trouble me to some degree.


And it's a good question. FISA courts routinely (in fact, exclusively) engage in judicial review of executive requests when the suspect is not present either. It's not an adversarial proceeding. No search warrant proceeding is, by its inherent nature. The purpose of the proceeding is to serve as a check and balance on some action taken by the executive branch. The courts essentially say to law enforcement: you say you want to bust into this guy's house and arrest him because he's evil, and that's fine. Just come in to court before a detached, impartial judge, and explain why. By doing so, the Constitution is satisfied. A similar process could take place for some kind of death warrant to be issued against a character like Al-Awlaki.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


"What part of 'second' don't you understand?" -Judge Morrison England


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:42 pm
Posts: 3435
Location: The 808
Occupation: World-class procrastinator and perpetual late-bloomer.
poutine wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:
How could such judicial review take place? The absence of the accused would seem to present a major hurdle, and I was not aware that there was anything in either current law or the Constitution that would provide for in-absentia, appeal-less, capital cases.

That's an honest question, by the way. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not an expert in international law. I've yet to see a possible solution to the problem posed by Al-Awlaki that does not trouble me to some degree.


And it's a good question. FISA courts routinely (in fact, exclusively) engage in judicial review of executive requests when the suspect is not present either. It's not an adversarial proceeding. No search warrant proceeding is, by its inherent nature. The purpose of the proceeding is to serve as a check and balance on some action taken by the executive branch. The courts essentially say to law enforcement: you say you want to bust into this guy's house and arrest him because he's evil, and that's fine. Just come in to court before a detached, impartial judge, and explain why. By doing so, the Constitution is satisfied. A similar process could take place for some kind of death warrant to be issued against a character like Al-Awlaki.


The thing that bugs me there is that it's not an adversarial proceeding. It's one thing to use that kind of procedure to justify a search and/or an arrest. In those cases, the search or arrest is an early step in the broader criminal justice process, and additional proceedings and protections will likely be triggered as a result later on. In the case of a kill list, we're talking about a non-adversarial process being used as the terminal review step. That's kind of troubling to me.

There's also the political question issue. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know the Constitution places the burden of waging war on the Executive and Legislative branches, not the Judiciary. Here, we'd be setting up a circumstance where the Federal courts play a role in target selection and approval during military operations. That's also kind of troubling.

At the same time, killing an American citizen without due process of law is, well, kind of troubling. The fact that the citizen in question could negotiate his own surrender at any time does very little to mitigate that. Leaving him free to continue to participate in a de facto war against the country is another bad idea. So is restricting our military from using the most expeditious means possible to remove the threat. There are no good solutions here, at least as far as I can see.

_________________
"If it was a legitimately stolen election, Romney's body would have had ways of shutting that down. Also, if a usurpation happens, even in that horrible situation of a stolen election, it was God's will." -A Legal Lohengrin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:32 am
Posts: 20294
Location: FEMA Camp 17 -- Malibu (Hey! You! Get off the lawn!)
Occupation: Schadenfreude artist.
Al-Awlaki knows he's wanted in the U.S. He can surrender himself if he wants. (Noam Chomsky will go pick him up.) But he'd rather continue to make war on the U.S. While he is a U.S. citizen I don't see the problem in pursuing him with lethal force. He is in foreign country, not in our (or any of our allies') custody, and we have the right to self defense.

_________________
When there are a finite number of ways to screw something up, Orly Taitz will find an infinite number of ways to do so. (The Sternsig Rule.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Posts: 13776
Location: New England
Occupation: Professor of Sociology
poutine wrote:
...A similar process could take place for some kind of death warrant to be issued against a character like Al-Awlaki.

Would we know whether such a process has been followed for Al-Awlaki?

_________________
"Someone should tell Mrs. Reagan that young people -- not even young people on drugs -- are not the ones responsible for the major problems besetting the world!" John Irving, A Prayer for Owen Meany: A Novel, p. 370.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:30 pm
Posts: 2912
Location: The Great Pariah State of Arizona
TollandRCR wrote:
poutine wrote:
...A similar process could take place for some kind of death warrant to be issued against a character like Al-Awlaki.

Would we know whether such a process has been followed for Al-Awlaki?


Possibly not. I doubt it though, because FISA court proceedings may be secret, but FISA's statutes and procedures are not. There is no statute or procedure I am aware of that sets forth the specific process for obtaining a death warrant.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


"What part of 'second' don't you understand?" -Judge Morrison England


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 pm
Posts: 9708
Curious Blue wrote:
A Legal Lohengrin wrote:
Curious Blue wrote:
I haven't followed the Al-Awlaki situation -- but if he is affiliated with Al Qaeda, then he is as much a target as any other combatant. I don't get this concept that somehow American citizens are cloaked in some sort of special "due process" protection that means they can somehow join an army at war with the US and be exempt from the ordinary consequences of being at war with the US.


What's "affiliated?" We can just murder someone because they gave a cab ride to someone in al-Qaeda?


I simply meant that if he is an active participant of Al Qaeda, which the US apparently believes him to be. See http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-E ... overstated


I'd still want to know what kind of rule we want to establish. It's not going to be one where there is going to be much in the way of post-action review by anyone at all, because by definition, operations like this are going to take place in secret, based on evidence only known to the executive, who will be the sold "decider." While I'm somewhat less nervous with Obama's finger on the trigger, the absolute, unreviewable discretion of such actions means the executive could, without any sort of guidance, deliberately take actions to provoke a war to do an end-run around Congress to an even greater extent than before.

I assume the government has access to some of the communications between al-Awlaki and the people he is said to have "inspired." If that goes beyond mere inspiration to operational guidance or logistical support, that puts him in the same category as Osama bin Laden. Take that principle much further, though, and it is a warrant for unlawful and even terrorist behavior by our own government.

_________________
"[T]he American people, taking one with another, constitute the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered together under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages, and. . .they grow more timorous, more sniveling, more poltroonish, more ignominious every day." H.L. Mencken


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:30 pm
Posts: 2912
Location: The Great Pariah State of Arizona
Mikedunford wrote:
The thing that bugs me there is that it's not an adversarial proceeding. It's one thing to use that kind of procedure to justify a search and/or an arrest. In those cases, the search or arrest is an early step in the broader criminal justice process, and additional proceedings and protections will likely be triggered as a result later on. In the case of a kill list, we're talking about a non-adversarial process being used as the terminal review step. That's kind of troubling to me.


And for my part, I choose not to even wade into that quagmire. Staunch advocates would argue that he is entitled to a full-blown trial before any such action can be taken against him by his own government. Others would argue that the amount of "process" that is "due" is much, much less than that. I fit in the latter category. But what CB and others suggest is that the amount of process he is entitled to is: zero. Zero process < due process, and therefore, the Constitution does not permit this as to an American.

Quote:
There's also the political question issue. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know the Constitution places the burden of waging war on the Executive and Legislative branches, not the Judiciary. Here, we'd be setting up a circumstance where the Federal courts play a role in target selection and approval during military operations. That's also kind of troubling.

At the same time, killing an American citizen without due process of law is, well, kind of troubling. The fact that the citizen in question could negotiate his own surrender at any time does very little to mitigate that. Leaving him free to continue to participate in a de facto war against the country is another bad idea. So is restricting our military from using the most expeditious means possible to remove the threat. There are no good solutions here, at least as far as I can see.


The various opinions written by the Justices in Ramdi v. Rumsfeld are interesting reads on this topic. Upon reading them, the suggestion that these same justices would agree that detention without due process is unconstitutional but death without due process is constitutional is, let's just say, dubious.

Justice Scalia, for example (you know you're in trouble when you find your opinions being called into question by Scalia as too far beyond his comfort level in setting aside the constitutional rights of a traitor):

Quote:
To be sure, certain types of permissible noncriminal detention–that is, those not dependent upon the contention that the citizen had committed a criminal act–did not require the protections of criminal procedure. However, these fell into a limited number of well-recognized exceptions–civil commitment of the mentally ill, for example, and temporary detention in quarantine of the infectious. See Opinion on the Writ of Habeas Corpus, 97 Eng. Rep. 29, 36—37 (H. L. 1758) (Wilmot, J.).[highlight]It is unthinkable that the Executive could render otherwise criminal grounds for detention noncriminal merely by disclaiming an intent to prosecute, or by asserting that it was incapacitating dangerous offenders rather than punishing wrongdoing.[/highlight] Cf. Kansas v. Hendricks, 521 U.S. 346, 358 (1997) (“A finding of dangerousness, standing alone, is ordinarily not a sufficient ground upon which to justify indefinite involuntary commitment”).


and:

Quote:
Subjects accused of levying war against the King were routinely prosecuted for treason. E.g., Harding’s Case, 2 Ventris 315, 86 Eng. Rep. 461 (K. B. 1690); Trial of Parkyns, 13 How. St. Tr. 63 (K. B. 1696); Trial of Vaughan, 13 How. St. Tr. 485 (K. B. 1696); Trial of Downie, 24 How. St. Tr. 1 (1794). [highlight]The Founders inherited the understanding that a citizen’s levying war against the Government was to be punished criminally.[/highlight] The Constitution provides: “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort”; and establishes a heightened proof requirement (two witnesses) in order to “convic[t]” of that offense. Art. III, §3, cl. 1.

In more recent times, too, [highlight]citizens have been charged and tried in Article III courts for acts of war against the United States, even when their noncitizen co-conspirators were not[/highlight].


and:

Quote:
Further evidence comes from this Court’s decision in Ex parte Milligan, supra. There, the Court issued the writ to an American citizen who had been tried by military commission for offenses that included conspiring to overthrow the Government, seize munitions, and liberate prisoners of war. Id., at 6—7. The Court rejected in no uncertain terms the Government’s assertion that military jurisdiction was proper “under the ‘laws and usages of war,’ ” id., at 121:

“It can serve no useful purpose to inquire what those laws and usages are, whence they originated, where found, and on whom they operate; they can never be applied to citizens in states which have upheld the authority of the government, and where the courts are open and their process unobstructed.” Ibid.1

Milligan is not exactly this case, of course, since the petitioner was threatened with death, not merely imprisonment. But the reasoning and conclusion of Milligan logically cover the present case. The Government justifies imprisonment of Hamdi on principles of the law of war and admits that, absent the war, it would have no such authority. But if the law of war cannot be applied to citizens where courts are open, then Hamdi’s imprisonment without criminal trial is no less unlawful than Milligan’s trial by military tribunal.

Milligan responded to the argument, repeated by the Government in this case, that it is dangerous to leave suspected traitors at large in time of war:

“If it was dangerous, in the distracted condition of affairs, to leave Milligan unrestrained of his liberty, because he ‘conspired against the government, afforded aid and comfort to rebels, and incited the people to insurrection,’ the law said arrest him, confine him closely, render him powerless to do further mischief; and then present his case to the grand jury of the district, with proofs of his guilt, and, if indicted, try him according to the course of the common law. If this had been done, the Constitution would have been vindicated, the law of 1863 enforced, and the securities for personal liberty preserved and defended.” Id., at 122.

Thus, [highlight]criminal process was viewed as the primary means–and the only means absent congressional action suspending the writ–not only to punish traitors, but to incapacitate them[/highlight].


And this sweeping conclusion:

Quote:
The Founders well understood the difficult tradeoff between safety and freedom. “Safety from external danger,” Hamilton declared,

“is the most powerful director of national conduct. Even the ardent love of liberty will, after a time, give way to its dictates. The violent destruction of life and property incident to war; the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty, to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they, at length, become willing to run the risk of being less free.” The Federalist No. 8, p. 33.

The Founders warned us about the risk, and equipped us with a Constitution designed to deal with it.

Many think it not only inevitable but entirely proper that liberty give way to security in times of national crisis–that, at the extremes of military exigency, inter arma silent leges. Whatever the general merits of the view that war silences law or modulates its voice, that view has no place in the interpretation and application of a Constitution designed precisely to confront war and, in a manner that accords with democratic principles, to accommodate it. Because the Court has proceeded to meet the current emergency in a manner the Constitution does not envision, I respectfully dissent.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


"What part of 'second' don't you understand?" -Judge Morrison England


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:32 am
Posts: 20294
Location: FEMA Camp 17 -- Malibu (Hey! You! Get off the lawn!)
Occupation: Schadenfreude artist.
You have to catch them (or they have to surrender) before you can try them. They've sworn they won't be taken alive. They surround themselves with innocents and they routinely have innocents wear bombs to commit suicide and take other innocents with them.

They want to be martyred for their cause.

I think the government has every right to grant them this dying wish.

_________________
When there are a finite number of ways to screw something up, Orly Taitz will find an infinite number of ways to do so. (The Sternsig Rule.)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1089 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 ... 44  Next   

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
View new posts | View active topics



Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group