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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:13 pm 
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ZekeB wrote:
Dolly wrote:
They think a prank seriously damaged their reputation? Did they forget about the accident? #-o

You need to understand in SE Asia saving face is more important than saving lives. You see that here in the US from time to time, but instead of saving face it's about saving money.


South Korea isn't in SE Asia ;)

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:43 am 
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Somerset wrote:
ZekeB wrote:
Dolly wrote:
They think a prank seriously damaged their reputation? Did they forget about the accident? #-o

You need to understand in SE Asia saving face is more important than saving lives. You see that here in the US from time to time, but instead of saving face it's about saving money.


South Korea isn't in SE Asia ;)

Well, I have no experience in SE Asia, but I do in Japan and Korea, and saving face is absolutely critical there as well.

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:09 am 
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ducktape wrote:
Somerset wrote:
ZekeB wrote:
You need to understand in SE Asia saving face is more important than saving lives. You see that here in the US from time to time, but instead of saving face it's about saving money.


South Korea isn't in SE Asia ;)

Well, I have no experience in SE Asia, but I do in Japan and Korea, and saving face is absolutely critical there as well.


No argument. I wasn't making a point about culture, just about geography ;)

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:18 am 
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I've been watching this article as it's been updated, seems to have settled for now. They seemed to be in on a lot of information not seen elsewhere.
http://avherald.com/h?article=464ef64f

There's a very big tell in this paragraph:

Quote:
On Jul 9th 2013 the NTSB reported in their third press conference based on pilot interviews, that they were requested to maintain 180 KIAS until 5nm out, then extended the flaps to landing configuration of 30 degrees (160 KIAS max speed), they were high descending through 4000 feet, set vertical speed mode at -1500fpm, at 500 feet AGL the PAPIs were showing three red one white and the pilot began to pull back on the yoke to reduce rate of descent assuming the autothrottles would maintain the speed set to 137 knots. A lateral deviation developed taking the attention of the crew. Descending through 200 feet all PAPIs were red and the speed had decayed into the red/black marked range, the training captain realised the autothrottles were not maintaining the target speed, at that point the pilot flying had already started to move the levers forward. There were three pilots in the cockpit, the captain under supervision was pilot flying occupying the left hand seat, the training captain was pilot monitoring occupying the right hand seat, the relief first officer was occupying the observer seat, the relief captain was in the cabin at the time of the landing. The captain under supervision, 9700 hours total flying experience with 5000 hours in command, type ratings for B737, B747 and A320 having been ground instructor and sim instructor as well captain on A320s from 2005 to 2013, had flown 10 legs for a total of 35 hours on the Boeing 777-200 so far and was about half way through his supervision. The training captain, about 3000 hours on B777 and about 10k hours in command, was on his first flight as training captain, he was pilot in command, the two pilots had never flown together before. The relief first officer had 4600 hours of total experience, about 900 hours on B772 and about 5-6 landings into SFO as pilot monitoring on B772. The autothrottle switches were found in the armed position post accident, it is not yet clear in what mode the autothrottles were and whether autothrottles were engaged or not. Two flight attendants in the aft cabin were ejected from the aircraft during the accident sequence and were later found up and aside of the runway with injuries. At least one of the escape slides inflated inside the cabin. There was a post accident fire at the inboard section of the #2 engine, an oil tank had ruptured leaking oil onto the hot engine. The thrust reversers were found stowed, the speedbrakes were retracted. Both engine fire handles were pulled and agents discharged, the APU fire handle was pulled and agent discharged as well. Traces at the sea wall reveal that the main landing gear struck the sea wall first, then the tail of the aircraft.


We teach that the vertical speed mode should be considered a "dangerous" mode to use. Dangerous in that you lose a lot of the built in protections that the automation provides.

In this case the crew seems to have used VS mode to get down quickly to the Vertical Path. But here's where the danger comes in, when in VS mode the automation won't "capture" the Vertical Path, it will just keep going up or down to whatever altitude is set in the Altitude window.

So VS did what it is supposed to do, it descended the plane down, and it kept going down to Localaizer Only minimums of 460 (or 500) feet.

I need to make a graphic to make this clear....

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:29 am 
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GreatGrey wrote:
In this case the crew seems to have used VS mode to get down quickly to the Vertical Path. But here's where the danger comes in, when in VS mode the automation won't "capture" the Vertical Path, it will just keep going up or down to whatever altitude is set in the Altitude window.

So VS did what it is supposed to do, it descended the plane down, and it kept going down to Localaizer Only minimums of 460 (or 500) feet.

Wouldn't an added danger in this case be, that there was no glideslope to capture in the first place? I'm only an anorak, but if the ILS was inop as it hadn't been recalibrated, wouldn't that mean that neither the LLZ or GS would be available?

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:31 am 
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GG, if I read it right my previous characterization, that the pilots flew the plane into the ground, needs to be slightly modified: The pilots used automated devices on the plane to insure it would fly itself into the ground and became distracted before they could modify the automated devices. So the plane flew itself into the ground.

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:00 am 
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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:10 am 
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Steven Colbert has been reading here and channels a lot of what's been said:

www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:18 am 
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CBS News/ July 18, 2013, 11:10 AM
Plane crashes into home in Maryland

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-575 ... -maryland/


small plane. no details.

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:39 pm 
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It has not yet been determined whether or not one of the victims of the Asiana crash was alive or not when she was run over by a fire engine trying to reposition to fight the flames. They cannot figure out how she ended up where she was found.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/H ... 671710.php

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:13 pm 
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I feel sorry for whoever was driving this vehicle. No matter what the actual facts of the situation are, here we have someone whose main purpose in life was to save lives, who will have this on his or her conscience forever.

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:16 pm 
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Foam had been sprayed all over the place. Could this poor child have been dragged by one vehicle and then run over by another?

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:29 am 
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This is the latest report and it is so very tragic. It appears that the teen was alive when she was run over by the fire engine trying to save other lives. I just hate what this might mean for the department which works so hard to be as good as they can be and do as best as can be humanly done.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S ... 674126.php

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:30 am 
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esseff44 wrote:
This is the latest report and it is so very tragic. It appears that the teen was alive when she was run over by the fire engine trying to save other lives. I just hate what this might mean for the department which works so hard to be as good as they can be and do as best as can be humanly done.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S ... 674126.php

Police officers forced to kill in the line of duty face the same psycological pain as this fire fighter will face, and yet police officers are much more likely to face grand juries, civil suits, and negative media and public opinion than are firefighters.


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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:59 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:33 am 
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To my knowledge, there is no ambulance service anywhere, whether a private company or fire dept-based, that is the primary responder to an emergency incident. Their protocol requires they stand by (or stage) until they receive a specific order to access the scene. The different emergency services all have different objectives and respond accordingly. At a fire scene, the FD is the command service, and their fireground priority is to locate and rescue victims. Police and EMT personnel are not allowed into the fireground tactical scene until they receive permission from the fireground commander. At a shooting or bombing, the PD would be the command service and FD and EMT must stand by until cleared by PD command. Even if the EMT service is first on-scene, they must stand-by until PD or FD arrives and clears them for entry. Before I was an officer, I watched a man almost bleed to death in the street after a shooting one time with an ambulance staged at the end of the block because the PD hadn't arrived and cleared the scene yet.

The reports I have seen say the victim was covered in the foam from the fire fighting efforts and was not visible to the responding units. It does not strike me as unusual in any way that either the first unit on scene nor the subsequent units failed to see her. I have seen bomb blast victims, fire victims and accident victims who were so covered in soot and ashes that they were practically indistinguishable from their surroundings.


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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:19 pm 
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It's now official that the teen was alive when she was hit and hit perhaps by more than one fire engine. Still, it is unknown how she got to where she was found. Her seatmates who died were in different placed. The third one was still in her seat in the plane. She died later in the hospital.

I am not sure but I think Sugar explained the protocol that most departments follow. There was a lot of fuel that and the danger of an explosion was so great that the fire would have been a priority in any case. If someone were injured and lying near the plane and the plane exploded, what chance would they have had? In those moments, there are just too many unknowns. The whole thing is heartbreaking for everyone concerned. It's not going to make those drivers feel any better even if they find out it could not have been helped. Will it make them less able to fight fires like this for fear of hitting someone that they cannot see? That would be even worse and could cost even more lives.

I am worried about our PG&E linemen, too. Sometimes, they are the very first responders and the fire departments have to wait for them to deal with power lines and gas lines first before they can go in.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/C ... 674928.php

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:22 pm 
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esseff44 wrote:
The whole thing is heartbreaking for everyone concerned. It's not going to make those drivers feel any better even if they find out it could not have been helped. Will it make them less able to fight fires like this for fear of hitting someone that they cannot see? That would be even worse and could cost even more lives.


It's just a sad situation all around. The kind of person who is a first responder is going to be absolutely devastated by this even if it wasn't his or her fault.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:39 pm 
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It's been a couple of decades, but I was an EMT at one point.

Unlike police and fire, EMS personnel are not expected to enter scenes that are unsafe. They are, in fact, expected to NOT enter UNTIL the scene is safe. A rescuer who enters an unsafe scene frequently becomes an additional victim, and every additional victim complicates care and endangers the safety of other victims and rescuers.

In the case of active hazmat incidents - and plane crashes certainly qualify as such - there is a "rule of thumb" that ems personnel will normally follow: close one eye, extend arm with thumb pointing upward. If you cannot cover the hazmat incident with that thumb, you are too close.

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:34 am 
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This is pure speculation on my part, but if I had to guess, I would say that EMT units are under the fire department because fires commonly have injuries. To be able To have the paramedics go out at the same time as the fire department can allow them to get to the injured people faster. Again, though, that is just a guess.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:49 am 
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Airport fire departments are a bit different from "civilian" fire departments. It wouldn't surprise me if there are few if any EMTs assigned to the airport fire department.


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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:54 pm 
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Quote:
At least six people suffered minor injuries when a Southwest Airlines plane landed at LaGuardia Airport with a nose gear collapse, according to officials.

Most of the airport is closed until further notice, according to officials.

"Southwest Airlines Flight 345, a Boeing 737 arriving at LaGuardia from Nashville reported possible front landing gear issues before landing," the FAA said in a statement. "The plane's nosegear collapsed as the aircraft landed on Runway 4 at 5:45 p.m."

The plane came safely to a stop, the FAA said.

There were 143 passengers and five crew members on board the plane, according to another official. Six people were being treated by medical personnel -- four for anxiety attacks, two for minor bumps and bruises, according to the Port Authority.



http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/la ... 01331.html

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Another twist to this tragic event. New fire engines are required to have heat-sensors on board that will show if there is a living thing in their path and also where the hot spots are in a burning structure that are not visible otherwise. The rig that hit the Chinese passenger was not equipped with this device. T. he requirement was instated fairly recently. For some years earlier, it had been a recommendation. Somehow, I think that the older rigs are going to get them as well to avoid this kind of situation.

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/R ... 679257.php

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:44 pm 
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esseff44 wrote:
The rig that hit the Chinese passenger was not equipped with this device. T. he requirement was instated fairly recently.


That it was even a recommendation will certainly figure in any lawsuit against the agency that responded.

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 Post subject: Plane Crash - Jet Crash
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:25 pm 
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TV Station Issues DMCA Takedowns On Videos Of Its Fake Asian Pilot Names Debacle

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Local San Francisco television news station KTVU has embarked on a novel use of copyright law to cover up embarrassing footage. It has been issuing takedown notices to YouTube for videos showing its anchor literally reading fake names of pilots involved in the recent airline crash at San Francisco International Airport.


http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201307 ... acle.shtml

](*,)

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