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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:07 pm 
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Don't forget Sharon Rondeau's request of transcript for Stanley Dunham that proved she did not go to Washington two weeks after Barak was born. As a matter of fact it showed she was a correspondence student in '61 - '62.

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And the wisdom to team up at Politijab The Fogbow with those who share my addiction and know the difference


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:08 pm 
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You just know Polarik is going to claim "Ducky" changed the words in Pat's document to support Obama.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:09 pm 
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I think it's wrong to "clean up" a poor copy of a document in a way that makes it look like a "clean" original. I think it's more wrong to post the "cleaned up" version on scribd where anyone can search for it and find it without anything to tell them it has been "cleaned up". I hope I get an answer from the Congressional Research Service whether the copy is of a memo that was really written by them and I'll post the answer here if I get it.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:20 pm 
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kimba wrote:
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All I did was straighten up the pages and scan the document in OCR mode to make it easier to copy and paste from.


Which is an alteration of the document. Why? I'll try to express my concern. My opinion is what you have done is made a document that looks like an original document, not a crooked copy. I don't understand why you would do that. We don't have confirmation that what was originally posted is an authentic memorandum from the Congressional Research Service. We have a crooked copy. Now you've made something that isn't a crooked copy. I don't think it's right or useful to have altered it.

I must be getting old. I see both of your points.

As long as no one is hiding anything here, or making sekrit "corrections," I think we have the Puzo exemplar and the PatGund copy. And all we have to do is keep them straight. Let's hope we soon get the Kimba authenticated original.

(While one never knows with documents posted on the Internetz, the hallmarks on this one lead me to believe it's authentic. Not enough yet in a court of law, but getting there.)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:21 pm 
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kimba wrote:
I think it's wrong to "clean up" a poor copy of a document in a way that makes it look like a "clean" original. I think it's more wrong to post the "cleaned up" version on scribd where anyone can search for it and find it without anything to tell them it has been "cleaned up". I hope I get an answer from the Congressional Research Service whether the copy is of a memo that was really written by them and I'll post the answer here if I get it.

CRS may not be able to answer you. It might be more effective for you to contact your member of Congress to ask him to ask CRS to put the document into Open CRS. The evidence is that CRS produces many reports each year that are never seen by the public. Security reasons sometimes apply. Open CRS is a fairly recent innovation.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:28 pm 
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I appreciate having the OCR version. I had to type the whole section I quoted in my first post after reading it, because you can't copy-and-paste from a PDF that's really a graphic. I prefer, especially with large chunks of text, to copy-and-paste and then compare the text with the original. So thank you, Pat, for providing us that.

Kimba, the original is still there, posted by Mario. I appreciate having access to that, too, because as you're saying, it shows what the original text was in a way that's not alterable.

They're BOTH very valuable. I'm assuming that the thing is genuine until shown otherwise. Who would fake such a thing, spending probably dozens of hours on it?

If you do get an answer from the CRS, would you please follow up with a question as to whether the paper has ever been updated?

As I understand it, this came from the office of Blanche Lincoln. Hers must have one of the congressional offices that made "inquiries" about the birther claims. But as some of the birthers are now saying, it was published before the two FKBCs, before Orengo opened his fat yap, before the discovery of the index data in Hawaii, etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Isn't there some way Pat can just make a notation at Scribd to the effect that this version has been scanned and OCR''d? Then anyone that cares to look at it would be on notice as to why it may appear different than other versions.

Not that I think it matters a whole lot. Birthers will scream about whatever flits across their bitty minds, no matter what we say or do.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:45 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
It might be more effective for you to contact your member of Congress to ask him to ask CRS to put the document into Open CRS.

After a quick look at Open CRS's site, it looks like you can't request a Congress member to put a document into Open CRS. (Or, rather, you can ask, but....)

It seems like the proper procedure is for you to request a PDF from a Congress member, and then you yourself upload it to Open CRS.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:51 pm 
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I think Bob & Raicha's suggestions are both great.

Just add comment to the description at Pat's scribd account.

Request original from Congresscritter.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:06 pm 
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I'm seeing Pat's version in 3D, or at least double.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:13 pm 
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I guess I don't follow this discussion at all. We are treating something that a shyster like Apuzzo posted as if were the original document? I have no reason to doubt it and it looks genuine but really, what is the big deal? I ran OCR on it also to make it easy to copy the text I just didn't post the document.

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Grant me the superior wit and biting sarcasm to mock the Birthers whose minds I cannot change
The superior facts, law, and reason to change the minds of the Birthers whom I can
And the wisdom to team up at Politijab The Fogbow with those who share my addiction and know the difference


- Allison 2/16/2009


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:35 pm 
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twinx

This was a great find. I vote for this to be the TFB post of the month if we ever start such an award. =D>

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The O-bot prayer:

Grant me the superior wit and biting sarcasm to mock the Birthers whose minds I cannot change
The superior facts, law, and reason to change the minds of the Birthers whom I can
And the wisdom to team up at Politijab The Fogbow with those who share my addiction and know the difference


- Allison 2/16/2009


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:37 pm 
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raicha wrote:
Isn't there some way Pat can just make a notation at Scribd to the effect that this version has been scanned and OCR''d? Then anyone that cares to look at it would be on notice as to why it may appear different than other versions.

Not that I think it matters a whole lot. Birthers will scream about whatever flits across their bitty minds, no matter what we say or do.


Funny you should mention that. A bit after Kimba voiced his concern, I added this comment to it in info:

Quote:
"Supposed Congressional Research Service report (3 April 2009) regarding Obama Eligibility

(Note: This is a copy of an image document taken from Mario Apuzzo's website, where he claimed it as accurate. I have ran it though Optical Character Recognition, which made it available to cut and paste from, and had the side effect of straightening the pages. The content is identical to the original on said website. It is unknown at this time if this document is authentic or Yet Another Birther forgery)"

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:45 pm 
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Not a "supposed" CRS analysis. It IS the real thing. I contacted an unimpeachable source and received assurance that this legal memorandum is authentic. I intend to protect my source, so all that I will say is that Good Authority is a Washington insider.

A copy may be obtained through any Congressional office.

Oh, and I took the liberty of alerting the Library of Congress to the potential onslaught of angry birfer calls and letters.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:24 pm 
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It's obvious that Pat got his clean copy directly from George Soros...
:-$

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:31 pm 
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The fact that there's not much in there that's new to PJ/TFB is clearly suspicious. Just another PJ forgery! :twisted: =)) :-

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:35 pm 
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Shock of shocks, none of the Birfoons seem to have changed their minds as a result of this outstanding non-partisan research paper.

Isn't that odd? [-( =; 8>

One of them took the liberty of informing me that Maskell was "duped" because the COLB is a forgery "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Boy, did I get schooled! ?(

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:52 pm 
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It is the real thing.


Cool! Thanks BB and Good Authority.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:32 pm 
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Yes, thank you, BB.

Shame on CRS for not responding to Kimba, though. [-X

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:48 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
An external test of its provenance would involve determining if an agency that has traditionally done high-quality research, with full citations, would have produced this report. If the report has fundamental flaws, it is highly unlikely to have come from CRS.


That's an external test?

The Memo cites a previous work by the CRS, "The Constitution of the United States of America, Analysis and Interpretation", which is available from the Government Printing Office, though I don't find a 2004 version. The page ref to 456-457 is correct for the discussion of presidential qualifications in the 2002 version, from which the 2009 Memo quotes:

There is reason to believe, therefore, that the phrase includes persons who become citizens at birth by statute because of their status in being born abroad of American citizens.


That doesn't necessarily mean the Memo is authentic, as the cited document was already something of a known o-bot resource. Dr. Conspiracy cited it to findlaw.com. Tes had it cited to the CSR via law.cornell.edu.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:09 pm 
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As long as no one is hiding anything here, or making sekrit "corrections," I think we have the Puzo exemplar and the PatGund copy. And all we have to do is keep them straight. Let's hope we soon get the Kimba authenticated original.

(While one never knows with documents posted on the Internetz, the hallmarks on this one lead me to believe it's authentic. Not enough yet in a court of law, but getting there.)


The "original" document from Mario's Scribd is also here for anyone wishing to view and/or download.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Reality Check wrote:
twinx

This was a great find. I vote for this to be the TFB post of the month if we ever start such an award. =D>


Seriously...I was just up earlier than all of you. Time difference and all that. :oops:

Start up a 'Brit who got up Early one day in November and Caught a Corker Award' one day, and I'll accept it, in a suitably self-deprecating way of course. :oops: ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:41 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:50 pm 
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Occupation: NOTICE: I am on this board for the purpose of intelligent discussion. If you disagree with my point of view and want to discuss and debate ideas in a civil and respectful manner, I am happy to engage and participate. But if you want to make things personal through insults, ad hominem, and deliberately mischaracterizing what I have said -- sorry, I won't engage with trolls.
Foggy wrote:
Yes, thank you, BB.

Shame on CRS for not responding to Kimba, though. [-X


I'm pretty sure that CRS treats its stuff as "confidential", even thought it certainly is not top secret and there's probably no impediment for a Congress member to release it. But CRS's function is to work for Congress, producing whatever research they need into whatever question is asked. Usually it would be in an advisory position for proposed legislation -- but there are no limits on what can be asked or why.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:52 pm 
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Bursting another birther myth that Sarah Palin would be sworn into office after Obama is removed by Boehner and McConnell (or, alternatively, that a do-over election will be called) is another CRS report of interest: Presidential and Vice Presidential Succession: Overview and Current Legislation.

Quote:
Whenever the office of President of the United States becomes vacant due to “removal ... death or resignation” of the chief executive, the Constitution provides that “the Vice President shall become President.” When the office of Vice President becomes vacant for any reason, the President nominates a successor, who must be confirmed by a majority vote of both houses of Congress. If both of these offices are vacant simultaneously, then, under the Succession Act of 1947, the Speaker of the House of Representatives becomes President, after resigning from the House and as Speaker. If the speakership is also vacant, then the President Pro Tempore of the Senate becomes President, after resigning from the Senate and as President Pro Tempore. If both of these offices are vacant, or if the incumbents fail to qualify for any reason, then cabinet officers are eligible to succeed, in the order established by law (3 U.S.C. §19, see Table 3). In every case, a potential successor must be duly
sworn in his or her previous office, and must meet other constitutional requirements for the presidency, i.e., be at least 35 years of age, a “natural born citizen,” and for 14 years, a “resident within the United States.” Succession-related provisions are derived from the Constitution, statutory law, and political precedents of the past two centuries.


Just as we've been telling them for nearly two years.

Beginning with the Succession Act of 1886, and reaffirmed by Presidential Succession Act of 1947, this line of succession guarantees that potential successors are of the same party as the elected President.

<Cue birther head explosions ...>

And lest the birfers think this report was written by an Obot CRS staffer, it should be pointed out that the reported is dated September 27, 2004 -- smack dab in the middle of GW Bush's reign.

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