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Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:02 am
by AndyinPA
neeneko wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:52 pm
RVInit wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:43 pm
I don't recall that he ever got on TV as President and undermined peace talks that were underway, as the Palestinian representatives indicated is currently the case.
That is the key difference, and the trouble Trump seems to be having. Campaigning for office and being in office are two very different things, with a completely different set of constraints and people you need to appeal to. No one really cares if a candidate says such things because the diplomatic repercussions are not part of their equation, so they are safe to not take too seriously.

But once you are president, you are playing a very different game. Trump is still campaigning.....
He never expected to win. You can say and promise anything when you don't expect to actually have to follow through on any of the crap that's falling out of your mouth.

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:05 am
by Fortinbras
Some winners have made the same promise - and then reneged. Carter and Clinton for example. During the campaign it gets Jewish votes.

Doing it now may get Trump some Jewish support - possibly crucial in an atmosphere of impeachment - and, yes, it stirs up things in the Middle East but the eventual outcome might be an improvement.

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:46 am
by Tiredretiredlawyer
Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:15 am
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:44 am
neeneko wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:52 pm


That is the key difference, and the trouble Trump seems to be having. Campaigning for office and being in office are two very different things, with a completely different set of constraints and people you need to appeal to. No one really cares if a candidate says such things because the diplomatic repercussions are not part of their equation, so they are safe to not take too seriously.

But once you are president, you are playing a very different game. Trump is still campaigning.....
Well, maybe Trump can stop the Republican Donor Act of 2017 (another Fogbowzer came up with the name) since he promised not to cut Medicare or Social Security. I know I am asking for consistency but a girl can dream.
'Filly!
:thumbs:

Re: Israel

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:59 am
by Addie
WaPo
Israeli forces, Palestinians clash on Gaza border; 1 protester reported killed

JERUSALEM — Disturbances and demonstrations broke out in the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip on Friday as Palestinians protested in response to President Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. The Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza reported that at least one person was killed and dozens injured in the clashes.

Israeli security forces and Palestinian protesters clashed Friday in the West Bank cities of Bethlehem and Ramallah and on the border of the Gaza Strip, as Muslims staged demonstrations after Friday prayers to denounce Trump’s declaration.

The Health Ministry in Gaza said Mohammad al-Masri, 30, was fatally shot by the Israeli army east of Khan Younis in the enclave. It said that at least 35 people were injured in the clashes.

The Palestinian Red Crescent reported that 245 people were injured in the West Bank and Jerusalem.

Re: Israel

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:16 am
by neeneko
Fortinbras wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:05 am
it stirs up things in the Middle East but the eventual outcome might be an improvement.
I see these as mutually exclusive to a degree. One of the big reasons peace has been so elusive is people keep stirring things up. Generally peace comes from years of stability and economic development. Anything that decreases either of those sets the process back.

Re: Israel

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:29 am
by Fortinbras
Despite the way the Arabs talk, there has not actually been peace in and around Israel since whenever. Constant acts of terrorism of various kinds every week and almost every day. Even rockets and shells fired from the Palestinian territories. It is so common that newspapers outside Israel don't bother seem to think it worth reporting. So this new change hardly raises the temperature.

In fact, up to now, the Arabs have been intimidating many of the other countries from improving their relations with Israel. This move by the US may make the Arabs a lot less intimidating and encouraging other countries to strengthen their relations with Israel, which, in the long run, may contribute to peace in the region.

Re: Israel

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:41 am
by neeneko
Fortinbras wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:29 am
Despite the way the Arabs talk, there has not actually been peace in and around Israel since whenever. Constant acts of terrorism of various kinds every week and almost every day. Even rockets and shells fired from the Palestinian territories. It is so common that newspapers outside Israel don't bother seem to think it worth reporting. So this new change hardly raises the temperature.
Well yes, the whole region has been unstable since the end of WWII and the Great Game. Since the game has not ended, stability is not going to be in the cards any time soon.
In fact, up to now, the Arabs have been intimidating many of the other countries from improving their relations with Israel. This move by the US may make the Arabs a lot less intimidating and encouraging other countries to strengthen their relations with Israel, which, in the long run, may contribute to peace in the region.
I am skeptical there on both counts. Skeptical that 'Arabs' have somehow been intimidating everyone except the US, and I am not sure how moving an embassy will somehow make them 'less intimidating' or cause other nations to strengthen their relationships with Israel. The only way I can see this helping is that as US influence wanes (which this move will likely contribute to) and other nations fill the power vacuum, support for Israel will decrease and maybe cutting out that logjam will do something.

Re: Israel

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:49 am
by Sterngard Friegen
neeneko wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:41 am
Fortinbras wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:29 am
Despite the way the Arabs talk, there has not actually been peace in and around Israel since whenever. Constant acts of terrorism of various kinds every week and almost every day. Even rockets and shells fired from the Palestinian territories. It is so common that newspapers outside Israel don't bother seem to think it worth reporting. So this new change hardly raises the temperature.
Well yes, the whole region has been unstable since the end of WWII and the Great Game. Since the game has not ended, stability is not going to be in the cards any time soon.
In fact, up to now, the Arabs have been intimidating many of the other countries from improving their relations with Israel. This move by the US may make the Arabs a lot less intimidating and encouraging other countries to strengthen their relations with Israel, which, in the long run, may contribute to peace in the region.
I am skeptical there on both counts. Skeptical that 'Arabs' have somehow been intimidating everyone except the US, and I am not sure how moving an embassy will somehow make them 'less intimidating' or cause other nations to strengthen their relationships with Israel. The only way I can see this helping is that as US influence wanes (which this move will likely contribute to) and other nations fill the power vacuum, support for Israel will decrease and maybe cutting out that logjam will do something.
Butbutbut, Trump has his special envoy, Jared Kushner, who will deftly pull off the diplomatic miracle. :sarcasm:

Re: Israel

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:10 pm
by RTH10260
Senior Palestinian Official: Vice President Mike Pence ‘Unwelcome In Palestine’
The comment came one day after the Trump official moved to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

GAZA, Dec 7 (Reuters) - A senior Palestinian official in President Mahmoud Abbas’s ruling Fatah party said on Thursday that U.S. Vice President Mike Pence, due to visit the region later this month, “is unwelcome in Palestine.”

“In the name of Fatah I say that we will not welcome Trump’s deputy in the Palestinian Territories. He asked to meet (Abbas) on the 19th of this month in Bethlehem, such a meeting will not take place,” Jibril Rajoub said.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pe ... 90f04f35d5

Re: Israel

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:12 pm
by RTH10260
RTH10260 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:10 pm
Senior Palestinian Official: Vice President Mike Pence ‘Unwelcome In Palestine’
:snippity:


I guess the US Secret Service will neither recommend a journey to those areas...

Re: Israel

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:33 pm
by Fortinbras
It seems that RUSSIA already recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel about six months ago. For some odd reason that wasn't front page news here, but it may explain why Trump did it or thought it was safe to do it. So TWO of the most powerful empires will be officially recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital; maybe that will have a stabilizing effect. Other people are worried it will cause the Palestinians to riot -- but when did the Palestinians not riot?

Re: Israel

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:05 am
by bob
The Hill:
[Russia in April] publicly recognized West Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel.

* * *

In the statement, Moscow reaffirmed its "support for the two-state solution" while acknowledging that East Jerusalem should be the capital of the future Palestinian state.

"We reaffirm our commitment to the UN-approved principles for a Palestinian-Israeli settlement, which include the status of East Jerusalem as the capital of the future Palestinian state," the ministry said. "At the same time, we must state that in this context we view West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel."
So, in other words, almost nothing like what the president did.

Re: Israel

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:49 am
by RTH10260
bob wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:05 am
The Hill:
[Russia in April] publicly recognized West Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel.

* * *

In the statement, Moscow reaffirmed its "support for the two-state solution" while acknowledging that East Jerusalem should be the capital of the future Palestinian state.

"We reaffirm our commitment to the UN-approved principles for a Palestinian-Israeli settlement, which include the status of East Jerusalem as the capital of the future Palestinian state," the ministry said. "At the same time, we must state that in this context we view West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel."
So, in other words, almost nothing like what the president did.
Yeah - the Republican elephant in the Middle East porcellaine shop :blackeye:

Re: Israel

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:07 pm
by Tiredretiredlawyer
http://thehill.com/homenews/administrat ... ssion=true
Man in charge of holy Christian site in Jerusalem will refuse to welcome Pence

The official custodian in charge of one of the most sacred sites in Christianity will not welcome Vice President Pence when he visits the Old City of Jerusalem this month.

"I absolutely refuse to officially welcome the American Vice President Mr. Mike Pence at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and I will not be physically in church during his visit," he continued.

"This is an expression of my condemnation of President Donald Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel."

However, a prominent Christian group in the region has signaled they will not welcome Pence on his official visit in the wake of Trump's decision on Jerusalem.

The leader of Egypt's Coptic Christian Church said last week will not meet with Pence, saying Trump's decision came "at an unsuitable time and without consideration for the feelings of millions of people."

Re: Israel

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:47 pm
by bob
FYI (via Slate):
While Trump described his controversial recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel as a major change in policy, the State Department has made clear that there has been no formal change to the “position on the boundaries of sovereignty in Jerusalem.” For instance, American citizens born in the city will still have “Jerusalem” written as their birthplace on passports, not “Jerusalem, Israel.” No timetable has been set for moving the U.S. embassy to the city. Trump himself noted in his announcement last week that “we are not taking a position on any final status issues, including the boundaries of Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem.”

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:21 am
by RTH10260
bob wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:47 pm
FYI (via Slate):
While Trump described his controversial recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel as a major change in policy, the State Department has made clear that there has been no formal change to the “position on the boundaries of sovereignty in Jerusalem.” For instance, American citizens born in the city will still have “Jerusalem” written as their birthplace on passports, not “Jerusalem, Israel.” No timetable has been set for moving the U.S. embassy to the city. Trump himself noted in his announcement last week that “we are not taking a position on any final status issues, including the boundaries of Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem.”
IIRC in his speech Trump said that he has given the order to look for a location and begin a planning process. As "locations" are very rare in Jerusalem for a larger embassy compound this could be a rather lengthy process. Somewhere I was wondering if Nethanayu may force imminent domain (oro their local equivalent) on some landlords to give the US the opporunity to be the first to move real soon. Not that would make it any easier for those other nations that Israel expects to follow up.

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:24 pm
by bob
Salon: More proof that Trump’s Jerusalem embassy announcement seriously hurt the peace process:
The Palestinian leader said “from now on” a U.S. role in peace relations is not welcome, rebuking Trump’s decision

In a blow to President Donald Trump's promise to achieve peace in the Middle East, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Palestinians will no longer accept any U.S. role in a peace process with Israel "from now on."

Speaking at a summit of Islamic nations in Turkey, the words came as a direct retaliation of the president's decision for the U.S. to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, which Abbas said was a "crime"[*] that threatens world peace, the Associated Press reported.

Abbas added that the region would not see peace unless East Jerusalem were to be recognized as the capital of a future Palestinian state.

* Although "crime" is a strong word, the UN Partition Plan granted Jerusalem special status, belonging to neither Israel nor (the proposed) Palestine. (BOTG realities notwithstanding.) The United States voted for the partition plan, which the U.N. passed.

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:05 pm
by RTH10260
bob wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:24 pm
Salon: More proof that Trump’s Jerusalem embassy announcement seriously hurt the peace process:
The Palestinian leader said “from now on” a U.S. role in peace relations is not welcome, rebuking Trump’s decision
:snippity:
A good time for Jared to be removed from office as he as one less nonsense duty to perform :lol:

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:54 pm
by Sterngard Friegen
RTH10260 wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:05 pm
bob wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:24 pm
Salon: More proof that Trump’s Jerusalem embassy announcement seriously hurt the peace process:
The Palestinian leader said “from now on” a U.S. role in peace relations is not welcome, rebuking Trump’s decision
:snippity:
A good time for Jared to be removed from office as he as one less nonsense duty to perform :lol:
As far as I am concerned Jared Kushner has only one job before his imprisonment -- singing to Robert Mueller.

Re: Israel

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:17 pm
by Flatpointhigh
bob wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:24 pm
Salon: More proof that Trump’s Jerusalem embassy announcement seriously hurt the peace process:
The Palestinian leader said “from now on” a U.S. role in peace relations is not welcome, rebuking Trump’s decision

In a blow to President Donald Trump's promise to achieve peace in the Middle East, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Palestinians will no longer accept any U.S. role in a peace process with Israel "from now on."

Speaking at a summit of Islamic nations in Turkey, the words came as a direct retaliation of the president's decision for the U.S. to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, which Abbas said was a "crime"[*] that threatens world peace, the Associated Press reported.

Abbas added that the region would not see peace unless East Jerusalem were to be recognized as the capital of a future Palestinian state.

* Although "crime" is a strong word, the UN Partition Plan granted Jerusalem special status, belonging to neither Israel nor (the proposed) Palestine. (BOTG realities notwithstanding.) The United States voted for the partition plan, which the U.N. passed.
The plan was Jerusalem and the West Bank to be controlled by the UN/International forces: via wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... _Palestine
The resolution recommended the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States and a Special International Regime for the city of Jerusalem. The Partition Plan, a four-part document attached to the resolution, provided for the termination of the Mandate, the progressive withdrawal of British armed forces and the delineation of boundaries between the two States and Jerusalem. Part I of the Plan stipulated that the Mandate would be terminated as soon as possible and the United Kingdom would withdraw no later than 1 August 1948. The new states would come into existence two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The Plan sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims of two competing movements, Palestinian nationalism, and Jewish nationalism, or Zionism.[3][4] The Plan also called for Economic Union between the proposed states, and for the protection of religious and minority rights.
The Arab League didn't like that and invaded immediately after Israel declared Independence.

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:04 am
by RTH10260
When religion takes priority over secularism
The growing pains of Beit Shemesh
As the demographics of this burgeoning city skew more religiously rightward, residents fret over what the future will bring
By JESSICA STEINBERG 31 May 2015, 6:06 am

In a land where conflicts between residents draw blood on a regular basis, the skirmishes of Beit Shemesh, a city of just under 100,000 midway between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, may seem benign, almost trivial.

But the escalating disagreements between its ultra-Orthodox residents — who constitute about half the population and whose ranks are rapidly swelling — and the rest of Beit Shemesh seem impossible to reconcile and are prompting some residents to think of leaving a home they love and others to call for their part of town to secede.

One recent battle centers on illegal public signs ordering women in some neighborhoods to dress modestly. A group of four Beit Shemesh women won a court battle in January to have the signs removed and were to be financially compensated for having suffered the insults and threats of Haredi residents. But the signs never got taken down, sending the women and the ultra-Orthodox-controlled municipality back to court.

Other fierce struggles have been sparked by competing claims to public school buildings. And now a front is shaping up in twin battles over new neighborhoods for the growing city and the allocation of its limited resources.

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:05 am
by RTH10260
followed by
Supreme Court orders Beit Shemesh to remove modesty signs
Court rules placards must come down by December 12; justice says 'Israel does not have streets that are closed to women'
By JTA
5 December 2017, 11:02 pm 5

The Supreme Court ordered the Beit Shemesh municipality to remove signs that demand women dress modestly.

On Monday, the court rejected an appeal by the municipality of a lower court order in July to remove the signs. The court ruled the signs, which the justices say exclude women from the public sphere, must come down by December 12, the Ynet news site reported.

Beit Shemesh, a city of some 110,000 that is 19 miles west of Jerusalem, was to have been fined 10,000 shekels a day, nearly $3,000, for every day the signs remained posted.

In its appeal, the municipality said the signs demanding conformity to ultra-Orthodox dress are just “ideological signs.”

“Israel does not have streets that are closed to women,” Justice Hanan Meltzer responded in the courtroom, according to Ynet.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-c ... sty-signs/

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:05 am
by Tiredretiredlawyer
RTH10260 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:05 am
followed by
Supreme Court orders Beit Shemesh to remove modesty signs
Court rules placards must come down by December 12; justice says 'Israel does not have streets that are closed to women'
By JTA
5 December 2017, 11:02 pm 5

The Supreme Court ordered the Beit Shemesh municipality to remove signs that demand women dress modestly.

On Monday, the court rejected an appeal by the municipality of a lower court order in July to remove the signs. The court ruled the signs, which the justices say exclude women from the public sphere, must come down by December 12, the Ynet news site reported.

Beit Shemesh, a city of some 110,000 that is 19 miles west of Jerusalem, was to have been fined 10,000 shekels a day, nearly $3,000, for every day the signs remained posted.

In its appeal, the municipality said the signs demanding conformity to ultra-Orthodox dress are just “ideological signs.”

“Israel does not have streets that are closed to women,” Justice Hanan Meltzer responded in the courtroom, according to Ynet.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-c ... sty-signs/
Dancing while not dressed modestly. :dance:

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:17 am
by Tiredretiredlawyer
Moar from the article:
Beit Shemesh was first ordered to remove the signs in 2015, when the High Court said that they “cause serious harm to human dignity, equality, personal choice and autonomy,” Ynet reported.

Two years later, when the signs were not removed, the women who filed the original lawsuit turned to an administrative court to enforce the ruling.

Re: Israel

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:27 pm
by bob
WaPo: U.N. resoundingly rejects U.S. decision on Jerusalem in pointed rebuke:
The U.N. General Assembly on Thursday overwhelmingly passed a measure rejecting the Trump administration’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, which was repeatedly criticized as undermining the prospects for peace.

Despite blunt warnings that U.S. aid to countries that backed the resolution and even funding for the United Nations itself may be cut, the resolution on “illegal Israeli actions in occupied East Jerusalem and the rest of occupied Palestinian territory” got 128 votes. Only nine countries — including the United States and Israel — voted against it.[*] Another 35 countries abstained, and 21 were absent.

The vote was a pointed rebuke not only to President Trump but also to a U.S. pressure campaign to sway votes by threatening to cut funding. Though Trump said Wednesday that he would be “watching” for countries that receive a lot of U.S. aid and voted “against us,” the list of co-sponsors grew at the last minute to include Egypt and Jordan, the only two countries besides Israel that receive more than $1 billion in U.S. aid.

Nikki Haley, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, set the stage for a future showdown over aid linked to U.N. votes.

“The United States will remember this day in which it was singled out in this assembly for the very act of exercising our right as a sovereign nation,” she said. “We will remember it when, once again, we are called up to make the world’s largest contribution to the U.N., and we will remember it when many countries come calling on us to pay even more and to use our influence for their benefit.”
It is as if this administration has no clue. Specifically, in the value of ignoring a non-binding resolution, instead staking one's reputation on it.

* "For completeness":
Politico wrote:Joining the U.S. and Israel in voting against the resolution were Togo, the Marshall Islands, Nauru, Micronesia, Palau, Honduras and Guatemala. Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Poland and the Philippines were among those that abstained.