*Sigh* My local Radio station

Litlebritdifrnt2 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:45 pm

This evening on my drive home my local radio station (very right leaning) host was going on about the announcement that the "reporter" had mispoken when he said that the Governor of Hawaii could not find the Birth Certificate. He then kept saying "why not just show it" he then had a caller who said "I am sure that Ronald Regan had to show his birth certificate to be POTUS" blah blah blah. I shook my head and realized I had two choices 1) rip out my car radio and throw it out the window across three lanes of traffic or b) call in and set him straight. So I chose b). Lockwood was very nice (and when he found out I was a fellow squid he was even nicer) and thanked me for my information which he said he was not familiar with (ie Factcheck, moving the goalposts the whole deal). I then followed it up with an e-mail this evening which follows:

Quote:

Lockwood:

It was nice talking to you this evening fellow squid! I thought I would point you to a wonderful forum (of which I am a member my handle is Litlebritdifrnt2) The Fogbow. It has as its members a bunch of wicked smart lawyers and other professionals (I do not include myself in that group

) who have been debunking the "birfer" lies since before the inauguration. I noticed that after my call someone called and asked how Obama managed to travel to Pakistan in the 80s "as he could not have done it on a US passport". This is known as the "Pakistan travel ban myth" and has been widely debunked, there was no ban on traveling to Pakistan when Obama visited, in fact that same week in the NY Times there was an article about how easy it was to obtain a visa to travel to Pakistan.

As I mentioned to you on the phone. The Hilary camp put out a rumor that Obama's real middle name was "Mohammed" (I am not sure how that is somehow more scary to some folks than "Hussein" but it is what it is.) It was also rumored that he was actually born in Kenya. To dispel these myths the Obama campaign requested and then released (to the Daily Kos) a Certificate of Live Birth which had been obtained from Hawaii. The website Factcheck.org then went to the Chicago Campaign HQ and actually handled and photographed the COLB. Many of the "birfers" did not accept this document claiming many things, some as silly that it did not have "a raised seal" while some anonymous internet "experts" (most famously Polarik and Techdude) claimed that it had been photoshopped. (These people were lauded as heroes at the website NoQuarter who were very much the instigators of this entire conspiracy theory through one of their posters Texasdarling who also had her own website). Unfortunately (for them) one of the posters at both NQ and TD was an incredible researcher and (bless her) incredibly honest. She went and did some digging in the microfiched copies of the newspapers in Hawaii at the time and found the birth announcements in both of the major newspapers printed a few days after his birth.

At this point the "birfers" moved the goalposts so to speak and decided that it did not matter where he was born, and that because his father was not a US Citizen he could not be a "natural born citizen" as required by the constitution. To support their claim they cite "The Law of Nations" written by Emerett De Vattell, who said that in order to be a citizen one must be born of two citizen parents (which you and I know is not the case) they claim that "The Founders" based the Constitution on "The Law of Nations" (rather than English Common Law) It is highly amusing to me that many of these "birfers" are also gun rights advocates and yet they do not ever mention that De Vattell also said in The Law of Nations that only the nobility and the military should be allowed to own guns

In addition (as can be evidenced by the "birfer" bill currently being resurrected in the Arizona State house) the "birfers" also claim that one cannot be a "dual" citizen and therefore hold allegiance to another country. This of course would disqualify almost every Jew, Irish American and Italian American in the country as they are automatically given dual citizenship at birth.

Anyway I know you are a busy man and probably do not have time to spend on lots of websites, but, despite your politics I love your show and enjoy listening to you. It grieves me that you (a fellow squid!) are being led down a primrose path by those of little knowledge. I would hope that with the information I have given you above you can more intelligently respond to those callers who come up with these long debunked conspiracy theories.

Here is link to The Fogbow.

http://www.thefogbow.com/

Dawn The Squid

PS) Sorry I can't help you with James from Midway Park, you are soooooooooo on your own there pal.

FYI James from Midway Park is an elderly gentleman who calls in almost every night and says everything is the fault of the Bilderbirgs and that whole thingy, his theories get more and more bizarre every night he calls. I feel sorry for the poor soul.

So how'd I do?

Suranis · **Joined:** Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:04 am **Posts:** 5253

I can't fault it. :hug:

ducktape · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:55 pm

You did awesomely well, Britty -- as my grandmother used to say, "you drew a circle and included him in" as you explained the facts very clearly.

I've wondered how I could explain this in a nutshell to someone, and I think you did, I'll print out your post for a wallet card.

cbreitel · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:56 pm

Hah, pretty damn good!

It's always funny trying to stifle the spread of birfoonia in a specific individual when you know it hasn't metastasized into full-blown stage 4 conditions. (Note: I make cancer jokes because I lost my dad to it, lest anyone think I'm being dismissive about that evil disease.)

Just this week, I realized to my horror that a very good, close family friend of mine who is unfortunately Republican was suffering from a mild bout of birferism. I quickly recognized that this was only because he hadn't bothered looking into the issue at all, was only going off what he'd "heard somewhere," didn't really care about it, figured it was probably a stupid argument, but thought to himself, "who knows, maybe it's true." I drafted up a dirty and sloppy write-up straight from scratch to try and kill off this thought process before it went any further. He was open to it, and asked me a good follow-up question, "So, what's all this crap I hear about long form versus short form?" I gave him the run-down on that too. He was convinced by the end of our email exchange. Another potential victim of birtherism, saved from doom.

twinx · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:57 pm

It's a great email, Britty. :-bd

I bet if you hadn't have pulled over and called in, you'd be kicking yourself.

You did the right thing.

mimi · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:00 pm

Thank you, britty! :-bd

Piffle · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:19 pm

A Legal Lohengrin · **Joined:** Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 pm **Posts:** 9402

Litlebritdifrnt2 wrote:

The Hilary camp put out a rumor that Obama's real middle name was "Mohammed" (I am not sure how that is somehow more scary to some folks than "Hussein" but it is what it is.)

I thought all this post was great, but I am questioning the use of the phrase "the Hillary camp." I am sure Loren knows this, but i recall that while a number of the earliest birfers were so-called "PUMAs" (Party Unity My Ass) who reacted incredibly aggressively to Obama's nomination with a nearly bulimic vomiting of crazed lies and even outright racism (specific example being that nitwit woman who described Obama as an "inadequate black male"), I am not convinced that "PUMAs" really even existed in significant numbers. After all, Phil Berg was in that number, and I question his Democratic credentials.

Nevertheless, while I concede that some percentage of early birfer scum were disgruntled Hillary supporters, I would view the "Hillary camp" as consisting of people actually associated in some way with the campaign, not crackpots like Berg and other early self-portrayed PUMAs.

This isn't a major gripe, I'm sure the otherwise excellent email informed its recipient. I just don't like associating Hillary with birfism, and seriously doubt she'd ever have, even in her worst moments during the primary challenge, have willingly associated with birfers. Yes, some of her supporters and some people claiming to have been her supporters have spouted birfism. But I doubt Hillary would consider those people in her "camp."

Sorry for a fairly extended post on what is certainly an innocently-intended characterization that I am sure did not deliberately associate the inestimable Hillary Clinton with birfers. I reiterate what I said at the outset, that your post was excellent and I am certain its impact will be positive. I apologize for a lengthy post about a very trivial nit-pick. If I had time, I'd make this post shorter.

milspec · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:34 pm

Outstanding reply good for you :-bd

Litlebritdifrnt2 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:38 pm

I apologize for the mischaracterization. I know for a fact that "The Hillary Camp" released a photo of Obama in "Muslim" garb when he was visiting Kenya. They actually admitted it after they were caught. I cannot say with certainty however that "The Hillary Camp" as in her organization began the "birfer" nonsense. It was certainly the PUMAs, as well as Hillaryis44 and their ilk that not only pursued but perpetuated the whole "birfer" nonsense. NoQuarter was one of the worst offenders, promising as they did to release the so called "Michelle Whitey Tape" in which Michelle Obama gave a speech at a Church which berated "Whitey" it is curious that three years later we are still awaiting the release of said Whitey tape.

To my mind one of the most compelling reasons that the birfers are full of absolute and utter shit is that the Hillary campaign didn't use it. If anyone thinks that there was anything to it and the Clinton Political Machine waved it away, then you know damn well that there was no there there. Hillary would never have allowed someone who was unqualified to run for POTUS to take away her nomination. Never going to happen, not on this Earth or on any other planet in the Universe.

kate520 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:08 pm

One thing, Britty, and the I'll duck down behind the sofa.

If you wnt people to read the whole thing, you have to break it into smaller chunks. There have been all kinds of studies tracking eye movement when people read on the web. After reading a few lines in huge chunk of post they just go, eh, screw it. It's too dense and hard to read. And skip right over it.

But if you break it up, they follow along.

See?

(ducking now)

Litlebritdifrnt2 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:34 pm

Kate you are chaneling Ms. Ellie Wyatt who used to berate me for exactly the same thing... gawd I miss her, thanks for correcting me as she would have done.

Litlebritdifrnt2 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:39 pm

And shit I am now crying again. I ain't never going to get over this.

kate520 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:44 pm

Me, too. I can't believe she won't be back.

=((

A Legal Lohengrin · **Joined:** Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 pm **Posts:** 9402

Litlebritdifrnt2 wrote:

I apologize for the mischaracterization. I know for a fact that "The Hillary Camp" released a photo of Obama in "Muslim" garb when he was visiting Kenya. They actually admitted it after they were caught. I cannot say with certainty however that "The Hillary Camp" as in her organization began the "birfer" nonsense. It was certainly the PUMAs, as well as Hillaryis44 and their ilk that not only pursued but perpetuated the whole "birfer" nonsense. NoQuarter was one of the worst offenders, promising as they did to release the so called "Michelle Whitey Tape" in which Michelle Obama gave a speech at a Church which berated "Whitey" it is curious that three years later we are still awaiting the release of said Whitey tape.

You have nothing to apologize for, and I tried to be really careful in not saying you did. I am certain that I am equally or even more careless in saying things on a daily basis. I agree that Hillary and even Bill did engage in questionable practices during the height of the primary, but birfism was not one of them. The term "camp" is kind of vague. It could be seen to include people like Berg and other PUMAs. But from how I remember it, Hillary fought like a demon while she still had a chance, but then became quite pragmatic once Obama had actually won. I am pretty sure Obama would have done the same thing if Hillary had won. Both of them knew that it was critical that a Democrat won in 2008, and neither of them went below the belt, since damaging the other candidate so much they couldn't win the general election would have been worth it.

Both Hillary and Barack waged a truly great primary campaign, and only Hillary's early error in underestimating Barack doomed her to lose. She would otherwise have won.

GreatGrey · **Posted:** Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:29 am

Nice job Britty, but I gotta ask... What was the reaction?

cbreitel · **Posted:** Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:18 am

A Legal Lohengrin wrote:

Litlebritdifrnt2 wrote:

I apologize for the mischaracterization. I know for a fact that "The Hillary Camp" released a photo of Obama in "Muslim" garb when he was visiting Kenya. They actually admitted it after they were caught. I cannot say with certainty however that "The Hillary Camp" as in her organization began the "birfer" nonsense. It was certainly the PUMAs, as well as Hillaryis44 and their ilk that not only pursued but perpetuated the whole "birfer" nonsense. NoQuarter was one of the worst offenders, promising as they did to release the so called "Michelle Whitey Tape" in which Michelle Obama gave a speech at a Church which berated "Whitey" it is curious that three years later we are still awaiting the release of said Whitey tape.

You have nothing to apologize for, and I tried to be really careful in not saying you did. I am certain that I am equally or even more careless in saying things on a daily basis. I agree that Hillary and even Bill did engage in questionable practices during the height of the primary, but birfism was not one of them. The term "camp" is kind of vague. It could be seen to include people like Berg and other PUMAs. But from how I remember it, Hillary fought like a demon while she still had a chance, but then became quite pragmatic once Obama had actually won. I am pretty sure Obama would have done the same thing if Hillary had won. Both of them knew that it was critical that a Democrat won in 2008, and neither of them went below the belt, since damaging the other candidate so much they couldn't win the general election would have been worth it.

Both Hillary and Barack waged a truly great primary campaign, and only Hillary's early error in underestimating Barack doomed her to lose. She would otherwise have won.

A friend of mine was very senior in the Hillary camp, and I personally witnessed this person become completely unglued during the campaign. He works in State today, and from what he says the resentment among Clinton people of Obama people remains strong to this day. The irrational hatred of Obama by the Clinton folks should not be underestimated, nor should it be forgotten by history. They thought he was a joke (a fairy tale, to quote Bill), and they still think they were robbed. I have no idea why they would refuse to entertain subtle birther paranoia at the time, especially before all the facts had developed and Clinton was clearly getting votes from many moron Democrats who didn't like the scary black man.

cbreitel · **Posted:** Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:28 am

Foggy · **Posted:** Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:03 am

A Legal Lohengrin wrote:

... I am not convinced that "PUMAs" really even existed in significant numbers.

When McCain picked Sarah, I posted on my local forum that I thought the same. That hardly any Hillary supporters would support Sarah, because she was the polar opposite of Hillary on the issues.

A buddy linked to HillaryClintonForum.net (now called Common Ground Politics). That was the most hoppin' forum I've ever seen, even more so than GLP. You'd put up a post, and by the time you navigated back to the "Most active topics" list, there were 30 more posts since yours ... in about 15 seconds. And they were ALL PUMAs. The non-PUMAs got banned. And there were a lot of other PUMA websites, back in the day.

I don't know if that amounts to "a significant number," but there were, and probably still are, a hell of a lot more PUMAs than there are birthers. At least, that's been my experience.

realist · **Joined:** Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:33 pm **Posts:** 23583

Our local talk radio is pretty typical of most, I suspect, as they will talk about and take calls about all things bad about the "Obama regime" and his policies and his politics.

I will give credit to all the local hosts, however, that since the very beginning of Obama's run for president, and even after the "birther" meme became talking points, they absolutely refused to talk about it, push it as an issue, and would literally laugh and/or hang up on callers who brought it up, and comment on how ridiculous a claim it is.

PatGund · **Posted:** Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:00 pm

Foggy wrote:

A Legal Lohengrin wrote:

... I am not convinced that "PUMAs" really even existed in significant numbers.

When McCain picked Sarah, I posted on my local forum that I thought the same. That hardly any Hillary supporters would support Sarah, because she was the polar opposite of Hillary on the issues.

A buddy linked to HillaryClintonForum.net (now called Common Ground Politics). That was the most hoppin' forum I've ever seen, even more so than GLP. You'd put up a post, and by the time you navigated back to the "Most active topics" list, there were 30 more posts since yours ... in about 15 seconds. And they were ALL PUMAs. The non-PUMAs got banned. And there were a lot of other PUMA websites, back in the day.

I don't know if that amounts to "a significant number," but there were, and probably still are, a hell of a lot more PUMAs than there are birthers. At least, that's been my experience.

Gen. Wesley Clark's "Clark Community Forum" was like that as well. The minute Wes Clark endorsed Clinton, there was a concerted effort by many there to drive away all "Clarkies" that didn't stick to the Hillary Party line. And after Hillary Clinton and Wes Clark endorsed Obama, any Obama-supporting Clarkies were treated with open contempt and scorn.

I started writing about the PUMAs due to my experiences there - and was exposed to the whole "birth certificate" claim there as well. And even now, there's a solid core of people there who will not let go, firmly believe Hillary Clinton had the election stolen from her, and openly speak of their hopes for Obama's failure. And that's despite Gen. Clark's open support for Obama.

Even in birtherstan, you see a lot of current and former Hillary supporters (Berg, Dr. Kate, TexasDarlin, Linda Starr Belcher, and a host of minor names too.) And despite the fact that Obama's agenda and Hillary Clinton's agenda were pretty much the same, the fact that the wrong person (in their eyes) won is enough for them to reject everything Hillary Clinton stands for.

I've said in the past that the birthers are the result of a drunken tryst between PUMA and Freepers. Certainly I've seen no reason to doubt that statement.

Adelante · **Posted:** Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:09 pm

PatGund wrote:

Gen. Wesley Clark's "Clark Community Forum" was like that as well.

And a horrible time it was. It pisses me off even to think about it two years later.

Quote:

I've said in the past that the birthers are the result of a drunken tryst between PUMA and Freepers. Certainly I've seen no reason to doubt that statement.

That seems right to me.

A Legal Lohengrin · **Joined:** Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 pm **Posts:** 9402

cbreitel wrote:

A friend of mine was very senior in the Hillary camp, and I personally witnessed this person become completely unglued during the campaign. He works in State today, and from what he says the resentment among Clinton people of Obama people remains strong to this day. The irrational hatred of Obama by the Clinton folks should not be underestimated, nor should it be forgotten by history. They thought he was a joke (a fairy tale, to quote Bill), and they still think they were robbed. I have no idea why they would refuse to entertain subtle birther paranoia at the time, especially before all the facts had developed and Clinton was clearly getting votes from many moron Democrats who didn't like the scary black man.

I'm not saying some supporters of the candidates didn't become unglued, or for that matter, that some of them aren't currently still unglued. There are at least a few. I do not believe Hillary herself to be in this "camp," though, and if they really respected the candidate they represent themselves as supporting, they would have gotten behind Obama just like Hillary herself did. The fact is, though, that it was an early-game error that lost Hillary the nomination. The rest of her campaign was masterful and without that initial blunder, she would be sitting in the White House. I'm pretty sure she knows this, too, and has shown grace and tact that the PUMA slice of her supporters should imitate. I have been much more impressed with her tenure as SoS than I thought I would be.

(Note: I was a bitter Deaniac in 2004, but nevertheless fell in line behind Kerry and did a lot of grunt work for the campaign.)

Loren · **Joined:** Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:20 pm **Posts:** 3898

Litlebritdifrnt2 wrote:

The Hilary camp put out a rumor that Obama's real middle name was "Mohammed" (I am not sure how that is somehow more scary to some folks than "Hussein" but it is what it is.)

Incidentally, as best as I've been able to tell, the 'middle name is Mohammed' rumor originated with this chain e-mail:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/govern ... church.htm

Identifying the author of the e-mail has proven impossible thus far, but I'm pretty sure it was written in early-to-mid-December 2007. The rumor had a brief bout of popularity, more or less died down, and then had a huge resurgence with the Loren & Celeste Davis email a few months later.

Falsehoods unchallenged only fester and grow.

Sigh My local Radio station

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