Israel

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AndyinPA
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Re: Israel

#376

Post by AndyinPA » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:02 am

neeneko wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:52 pm
RVInit wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:43 pm
I don't recall that he ever got on TV as President and undermined peace talks that were underway, as the Palestinian representatives indicated is currently the case.
That is the key difference, and the trouble Trump seems to be having. Campaigning for office and being in office are two very different things, with a completely different set of constraints and people you need to appeal to. No one really cares if a candidate says such things because the diplomatic repercussions are not part of their equation, so they are safe to not take too seriously.

But once you are president, you are playing a very different game. Trump is still campaigning.....
He never expected to win. You can say and promise anything when you don't expect to actually have to follow through on any of the crap that's falling out of your mouth.



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Fortinbras
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Re: Israel

#377

Post by Fortinbras » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:05 am

Some winners have made the same promise - and then reneged. Carter and Clinton for example. During the campaign it gets Jewish votes.

Doing it now may get Trump some Jewish support - possibly crucial in an atmosphere of impeachment - and, yes, it stirs up things in the Middle East but the eventual outcome might be an improvement.



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Tiredretiredlawyer
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Re: Israel

#378

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:46 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:15 am
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:44 am
neeneko wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:52 pm


That is the key difference, and the trouble Trump seems to be having. Campaigning for office and being in office are two very different things, with a completely different set of constraints and people you need to appeal to. No one really cares if a candidate says such things because the diplomatic repercussions are not part of their equation, so they are safe to not take too seriously.

But once you are president, you are playing a very different game. Trump is still campaigning.....
Well, maybe Trump can stop the Republican Donor Act of 2017 (another Fogbowzer came up with the name) since he promised not to cut Medicare or Social Security. I know I am asking for consistency but a girl can dream.
'Filly!
:thumbs:


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Addie
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Re: Israel

#379

Post by Addie » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:59 am

WaPo
Israeli forces, Palestinians clash on Gaza border; 1 protester reported killed

JERUSALEM — Disturbances and demonstrations broke out in the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip on Friday as Palestinians protested in response to President Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. The Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza reported that at least one person was killed and dozens injured in the clashes.

Israeli security forces and Palestinian protesters clashed Friday in the West Bank cities of Bethlehem and Ramallah and on the border of the Gaza Strip, as Muslims staged demonstrations after Friday prayers to denounce Trump’s declaration.

The Health Ministry in Gaza said Mohammad al-Masri, 30, was fatally shot by the Israeli army east of Khan Younis in the enclave. It said that at least 35 people were injured in the clashes.

The Palestinian Red Crescent reported that 245 people were injured in the West Bank and Jerusalem.


¡Qué vergüenza!

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neeneko
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Re: Israel

#380

Post by neeneko » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:16 am

Fortinbras wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:05 am
it stirs up things in the Middle East but the eventual outcome might be an improvement.
I see these as mutually exclusive to a degree. One of the big reasons peace has been so elusive is people keep stirring things up. Generally peace comes from years of stability and economic development. Anything that decreases either of those sets the process back.



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Fortinbras
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Re: Israel

#381

Post by Fortinbras » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:29 am

Despite the way the Arabs talk, there has not actually been peace in and around Israel since whenever. Constant acts of terrorism of various kinds every week and almost every day. Even rockets and shells fired from the Palestinian territories. It is so common that newspapers outside Israel don't bother seem to think it worth reporting. So this new change hardly raises the temperature.

In fact, up to now, the Arabs have been intimidating many of the other countries from improving their relations with Israel. This move by the US may make the Arabs a lot less intimidating and encouraging other countries to strengthen their relations with Israel, which, in the long run, may contribute to peace in the region.



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neeneko
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Re: Israel

#382

Post by neeneko » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:41 am

Fortinbras wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:29 am
Despite the way the Arabs talk, there has not actually been peace in and around Israel since whenever. Constant acts of terrorism of various kinds every week and almost every day. Even rockets and shells fired from the Palestinian territories. It is so common that newspapers outside Israel don't bother seem to think it worth reporting. So this new change hardly raises the temperature.
Well yes, the whole region has been unstable since the end of WWII and the Great Game. Since the game has not ended, stability is not going to be in the cards any time soon.
In fact, up to now, the Arabs have been intimidating many of the other countries from improving their relations with Israel. This move by the US may make the Arabs a lot less intimidating and encouraging other countries to strengthen their relations with Israel, which, in the long run, may contribute to peace in the region.
I am skeptical there on both counts. Skeptical that 'Arabs' have somehow been intimidating everyone except the US, and I am not sure how moving an embassy will somehow make them 'less intimidating' or cause other nations to strengthen their relationships with Israel. The only way I can see this helping is that as US influence wanes (which this move will likely contribute to) and other nations fill the power vacuum, support for Israel will decrease and maybe cutting out that logjam will do something.



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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: Israel

#383

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:49 am

neeneko wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:41 am
Fortinbras wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:29 am
Despite the way the Arabs talk, there has not actually been peace in and around Israel since whenever. Constant acts of terrorism of various kinds every week and almost every day. Even rockets and shells fired from the Palestinian territories. It is so common that newspapers outside Israel don't bother seem to think it worth reporting. So this new change hardly raises the temperature.
Well yes, the whole region has been unstable since the end of WWII and the Great Game. Since the game has not ended, stability is not going to be in the cards any time soon.
In fact, up to now, the Arabs have been intimidating many of the other countries from improving their relations with Israel. This move by the US may make the Arabs a lot less intimidating and encouraging other countries to strengthen their relations with Israel, which, in the long run, may contribute to peace in the region.
I am skeptical there on both counts. Skeptical that 'Arabs' have somehow been intimidating everyone except the US, and I am not sure how moving an embassy will somehow make them 'less intimidating' or cause other nations to strengthen their relationships with Israel. The only way I can see this helping is that as US influence wanes (which this move will likely contribute to) and other nations fill the power vacuum, support for Israel will decrease and maybe cutting out that logjam will do something.
Butbutbut, Trump has his special envoy, Jared Kushner, who will deftly pull off the diplomatic miracle. :sarcasm:



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RTH10260
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Re: Israel

#384

Post by RTH10260 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:10 pm

Senior Palestinian Official: Vice President Mike Pence ‘Unwelcome In Palestine’
The comment came one day after the Trump official moved to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

GAZA, Dec 7 (Reuters) - A senior Palestinian official in President Mahmoud Abbas’s ruling Fatah party said on Thursday that U.S. Vice President Mike Pence, due to visit the region later this month, “is unwelcome in Palestine.”

“In the name of Fatah I say that we will not welcome Trump’s deputy in the Palestinian Territories. He asked to meet (Abbas) on the 19th of this month in Bethlehem, such a meeting will not take place,” Jibril Rajoub said.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pe ... 90f04f35d5



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RTH10260
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Re: Israel

#385

Post by RTH10260 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:12 pm

RTH10260 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:10 pm
Senior Palestinian Official: Vice President Mike Pence ‘Unwelcome In Palestine’
:snippity:


I guess the US Secret Service will neither recommend a journey to those areas...



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Fortinbras
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Re: Israel

#386

Post by Fortinbras » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:33 pm

It seems that RUSSIA already recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel about six months ago. For some odd reason that wasn't front page news here, but it may explain why Trump did it or thought it was safe to do it. So TWO of the most powerful empires will be officially recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital; maybe that will have a stabilizing effect. Other people are worried it will cause the Palestinians to riot -- but when did the Palestinians not riot?



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bob
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Re: Israel

#387

Post by bob » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:05 am

The Hill:
[Russia in April] publicly recognized West Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel.

* * *

In the statement, Moscow reaffirmed its "support for the two-state solution" while acknowledging that East Jerusalem should be the capital of the future Palestinian state.

"We reaffirm our commitment to the UN-approved principles for a Palestinian-Israeli settlement, which include the status of East Jerusalem as the capital of the future Palestinian state," the ministry said. "At the same time, we must state that in this context we view West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel."
So, in other words, almost nothing like what the president did.


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RTH10260
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Re: Israel

#388

Post by RTH10260 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:49 am

bob wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:05 am
The Hill:
[Russia in April] publicly recognized West Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel.

* * *

In the statement, Moscow reaffirmed its "support for the two-state solution" while acknowledging that East Jerusalem should be the capital of the future Palestinian state.

"We reaffirm our commitment to the UN-approved principles for a Palestinian-Israeli settlement, which include the status of East Jerusalem as the capital of the future Palestinian state," the ministry said. "At the same time, we must state that in this context we view West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel."
So, in other words, almost nothing like what the president did.
Yeah - the Republican elephant in the Middle East porcellaine shop :blackeye:



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