United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

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Gregg
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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#76

Post by Gregg » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:49 am

As a pilot (I'm not an airline pilot but I do hold a commercial flight certificate) and not a lawyer, I tend to think from the point of FAA FAR and the definition of the authority and responsibility of a Pilot In Command and the flight crew, which is pretty broad, to the point of making the very broad statement that in an emergency you can ignore all the other rules.... but with that said, I'm not sure that the FAR (federal aviation regulations) are strictly speaking the same as laws from a technically legal point of view. Upon a little google-foo, the part of the FAR I'm thinking of also seems to apply more to authority over the rest of the flight crew. I was also not recalling the clause "during flight time" which very specifically does not occur until the plane leaves the gate, so maybe until then the Captain is just a guy with a fancy uniform...I dunno.
(d) Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.

(e) Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers.

[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19219, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121-253, 61 FR 2613, Jan. 26, 1996]
I would agree that if the Captain gives you an order its only "legal" if its a "lawful order", my thought is that on an airplane is not the forum to argue the point. If it is or is not a lawful order I would think should be decided by a Judge somewhere, not by shouting on the plane. Dragging a passenger off a plane isn't something easily defended and I won't, but in all fairness, United didn't do that, the Chicago Aviation Department did, United asked, then demanded he deboard, and then called the closest thing to the proper authorities they could.
Whether United had the right to demand a boarded passenger leave is an argument for the lawyers, I don't think anyone can argue that had they denied him boarding the airplane that would have been wrong, but to preserve order and safety we have to agree that somewhere, someone has to be obeyed and given the presumption that they are the person in charge. If a defendant doesn't agree with a guilty verdict, he can appeal but he can't just refuse to obey the judge because it might later be overturned.

I guess I'm just sympathetic to United here because this is one of those things that I think is a lot more complicated than the headline. I also have thought from the beginning that the Dr. was something of a jerk and I can't say why I think that, I just do. He's in my perception a mini version of a Sov-Cit who thinks he's above the law. He got picked by whatever United's system of picking who gets booted and more than a few questions of if the rules were to the letter followed aside, in the moment I don't think he should have fought being picked.
Does the airline have the right bump you from a flight, yes. Does that right have to be exercised before they let you get on the plane, maybe. Is the way they pick who to bump fair? Maybe... A lot of decisions in this situation are definitely open to debate and all before they used excessive force, but I still maintain that when they told him to get off the plane, he should have gotten off the plane.


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#77

Post by bob » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:11 pm

Gregg wrote:I still maintain that when they told him to get off the plane, he should have gotten off the plane.
"Should" is doing all the work here: Morally obligated or "the right thing to do"? Reasonable points to be made on either side.

But there's still no indication the passenger was legally required to do so, which also means United "should"" have honored its contract of carriage.
I would think should be decided by a Judge somewhere, not by shouting on the plane.
While preferable, there are real-life costs and consequences to missing a flight, and I understand this particular flight was United's last flight of the day to that destination.

And of course there are transaction costs (and uncertainty) when litigating disputes.
Dragging a passenger off a plane isn't something easily defended and I won't, but in all fairness, United didn't do that, the Chicago Aviation Department did, United asked, then demanded he deboard, and then called the closest thing to the proper authorities they could.
Because the airport authority's actions were readily foreseeable from United's demand, United's resulting legal (and moral) responsibility is pretty straightforward.
He's in my perception a mini version of a Sov-Cit who thinks he's above the law.
SovCits invent "laws" to justify their non-compliance with the actual law. The passenger here invented no law; rather, it was United that failed to honor its contract by inventing authority to justify the involuntary deboarding.


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#78

Post by Notorial Dissent » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:47 pm

The bunny incident is not over. There is a report making the rounds that United did in fact kill the bunny, by placing it in a freezer prior to shipping it.

When I can find the link again I will post it.


The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#79

Post by RTH10260 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:22 pm

WOW!

Googled and this article popped up. I see a multi-bazillion lawsuit on the horizon...
Who froze Simon rabbit? Giant pet died after bungling United Airlines staff put it in the FREEZER for 16 hours
  • Simon the giant rabbit died in a holding facility at Chicago o'Hare airport
  • He was bound for a new life in America with a new owner who' just bought him
  • But it has now emerged that the bunny was accidentally put in a freezer
  • It is a fresh disaster for United following the violent ejection of a passenger
By Paddy Dinham For Mailonline
PUBLISHED: 01:49 BST, 29 April 2017 | UPDATED: 20:54 BST, 29 April 2017

A giant rabbit that mysteriously died in the care of United Airlines was accidentally shut in a freezer by bungling staff, it has been revealed.

Black-furred Simon - expected to outgrow his 4ft 4 father to become the largest rabbit in the world - was alive when he was taken off the plane from London Heathrow but died at a holding facility at Chicago O'Hare Airport.

But now an airport worker has revealed that the pet was placed in temperatures of 0 to 2 degrees celsius by mistake, causing it to freeze to death.

The source told The Sun: 'The rabbit arrived fine but there was some sort of mistake and he was locked inside a freezer overnight.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... E-him.html



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#80

Post by Gregg » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:58 pm

bob wrote:
Gregg wrote:I still maintain that when they told him to get off the plane, he should have gotten off the plane.
"Should" is doing all the work here: Morally obligated or "the right thing to do"? Reasonable points to be made on either side.

But there's still no indication the passenger was legally required to do so, which also means United "should"" have honored its contract of carriage.
I would think should be decided by a Judge somewhere, not by shouting on the plane.
While preferable, there are real-life costs and consequences to missing a flight, and I understand this particular flight was United's last flight of the day to that destination.

And of course there are transaction costs (and uncertainty) when litigating disputes.
Dragging a passenger off a plane isn't something easily defended and I won't, but in all fairness, United didn't do that, the Chicago Aviation Department did, United asked, then demanded he deboard, and then called the closest thing to the proper authorities they could.
Because the airport authority's actions were readily foreseeable from United's demand, United's resulting legal (and moral) responsibility is pretty straightforward.
He's in my perception a mini version of a Sov-Cit who thinks he's above the law.
SovCits invent "laws" to justify their non-compliance with the actual law. The passenger here invented no law; rather, it was United that failed to honor its contract by inventing authority to justify the involuntary deboarding.
All good points, I have to agree. I'm still more forgiving of United than the consensus, but its obviously not an easy opinion to defend. There is a lot of screw up to go around, even if the actual passenger is blameless.


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#81

Post by RTH10260 » Wed May 03, 2017 11:27 am

United CEO, airline execs face latest group of unhappy customers: Congress
Lawmakers tell airlines: Choose to treat customers better or we’ll make you

Legislators who grilled executives from some of the nation's largest airlines Tuesday — an event precipitated by United Airlines' passenger-dragging incident last month — sounded like any other group of aggrieved passengers wondering why flying so often seems so unpleasant.

They complained about canceled flights and checked bag fees. They questioned why some airlines charge hefty change fees and others do not. They bemoaned airlines' practice of selling more tickets than there are seats on planes.

The difference between them and the general flying public: Congress has the power to force change through industry regulation, and legislators warned they may use that power if airlines don't deliver on promises made in the past three weeks.

"If we don't see meaningful results that improve customer service, the next time this committee meets to address the issue, I can assure you, you won't like the outcome," said Bill Shuster, R-Pa., chairman of the U.S. House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... story.html



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#82

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed May 03, 2017 11:39 am

Why don't the Republicans in Congress reduce regulation in the airline industry in order to Make America Great Again? Why are they being hypocrites and threatening more regulations? There's a very simple answer.
► Show Spoiler



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#83

Post by Notorial Dissent » Wed May 03, 2017 3:43 pm

In what is now becoming Bunnygate, it has been reported that not only did the airline freeze the bunny, they then cremated him before the owners could get him back. Way to go Untied.


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#84

Post by GreatGrey » Wed May 03, 2017 5:15 pm

I'm riding United from Miami to Anchorage via Chicago tomorrow. ( Hi Chalice! )

I sure hope they behave :P


I am not "someone upthread".
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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#85

Post by kate520 » Wed May 03, 2017 5:17 pm

Whatever you do, don't let them put you in the meat freezer! :mrgreen:


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#86

Post by RTH10260 » Wed May 03, 2017 9:49 pm

Notorial Dissent wrote:In what is now becoming Bunnygate, it has been reported that not only did the airline freeze the bunny, they then cremated him before the owners could get him back. Way to go Untied.
Breeder says United cremated giant bunny without her permission
By Max Jaeger April 30, 2017 | 6:38pm | Updated

Modal Trigger Breeder says United cremated giant bunny without her permission

The owner of the giant rabbit who died in the care of United Airlines last Tuesday says the scandal-scarred airline cremated her bunny’s remains so she would never know the truth about how it died.

“The whole thing stinks of a cover-up,” breeder Annette Edwards, 65, told The Sun.

“I had been asking United over and over again for his body so that I can have him examined here in Britain but they never got back to me. All I want to know is how he died.”
http://nypost.com/2017/04/30/breeder-sa ... ermission/

Note: all other reports on the Google go back to this article.



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#87

Post by Suranis » Wed May 03, 2017 10:08 pm

Rabbit is good eating!


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#88

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed May 03, 2017 11:30 pm

Suranis wrote:Rabbit is good eating!
Says the mouse.



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#89

Post by Fortinbras » Thu May 04, 2017 3:06 am

It was reported today that United Air, and possible some other USA airlines, are now ordering from Boeing new jetliners in which the rows of seats are 2 or 3 inches closer together (closer to the row ahead) than is presently in use. This enables the planes to sell about 6 to 10 more seats per flight. The space between seats has been shrinking over the last 20 years.

I recall that just before the attacks on the WTC in 2001 there were news reports of passengers becoming unruly, unwilling to remain in their seats, and somewhat combative; also news report of hospitals reporting instances of DVT (Deep Vein Thrombosis) in passengers on long flights as a result of the cramped leg-room - a condition which had the potential to cause serious, even fatal, strokes or heart attacks. But the Sept 11th Attacks seemed to have erased all these reports from the public mind, and instead we were all intimidated into keeping mum in and about airplanes.

I think it's time we all put the squeeze on the FAA and the Dept of Transportation to make airplanes comfortable, to make flying pleasant again.



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#90

Post by Lani » Thu May 04, 2017 3:18 am

:gotalink:


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#92

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu May 04, 2017 1:17 pm

I am barely five feet tall and barely 100 pounds and the airline seating is uncomfortable for me. It must be awful for average size and above!


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#93

Post by RTH10260 » Thu May 04, 2017 1:21 pm

Family Says They Were Forced Off Overbooked Delta Flight Over 2-Year-Old’s Seat
The Schear family of Southern California says they were threatened with jail time and having their kids taken away.

By Nina Golgowski

A California family says they were forced off of an overbooked Delta flight and threatened with jail time last week after refusing to give up a seat one of their young children was sitting in.

In video posted to YouTube on Wednesday, Brian Schear of Huntington Beach is seen arguing with airline staff after he’s asked to relinquish a seat that he says he purchased for one of his kids.

“I bought the seat and you need to just leave us alone,” Schear says in the cellphone video. “I’m not trying to cause a problem, but I believe in standing up for what’s right.”

Schear, speaking to KABC News, said that he, his wife and two of their three children were traveling on a red-eye flight from Hawaii to Los Angeles. They’d bought the seat in question for their oldest child, 18-year-old Mason Schear, who ended up flying home a day earlier than the rest of the family. Schear put his 2-year-old son in Mason’s seat instead. Upon learning that Mason wasn’t present, the airline ordered Schear to surrender the seat or be carted off to jail.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bri ... 397686c339

Perhaps cause the seat was in name of the older kid now considered a no-show, and the toddler had no seat booked for him?



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#94

Post by RoadScholar » Thu May 04, 2017 3:10 pm

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:I am barely five feet tall and barely 100 pounds and the airline seating is uncomfortable for me. It must be awful for average size and above!
Imagine what it's like for Suranis, a great bear of a man.


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#95

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu May 04, 2017 4:23 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:I am barely five feet tall and barely 100 pounds and the airline seating is uncomfortable for me. It must be awful for average size and above!
Imagine what it's like for Suranis, a great bear of a man.
No, he's not. He's a mouse- look at his picture. :-D


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#96

Post by jmj » Thu May 04, 2017 5:56 pm

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
RoadScholar wrote:
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:I am barely five feet tall and barely 100 pounds and the airline seating is uncomfortable for me. It must be awful for average size and above!
Imagine what it's like for Suranis, a great bear of a man.
No, he's not. He's a mouse- look at his picture. :-D
And that's straight from the horse's mouth.



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#97

Post by RVInit » Thu May 04, 2017 6:10 pm

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
RoadScholar wrote:
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:I am barely five feet tall and barely 100 pounds and the airline seating is uncomfortable for me. It must be awful for average size and above!
Imagine what it's like for Suranis, a great bear of a man.
No, he's not. He's a mouse- look at his picture. :-D
A cutie-pie mouse with a babby, no less :lol:


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#98

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu May 04, 2017 6:13 pm

jmj wrote:
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
RoadScholar wrote: Imagine what it's like for Suranis, a great bear of a man.
No, he's not. He's a mouse- look at his picture. :-D
And that's straight from the horse's mouth.
That's right!


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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#99

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu May 04, 2017 6:45 pm

Nay!



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Re: United Airlines - Flying the unfriendly skies

#100

Post by kate520 » Thu May 04, 2017 6:51 pm

Suranis wrote:Rabbit is good eating!
You mean, they didn't actually cremate him, they BBQ'd him? :swoon:

:mrgreen:


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