I never intended my original post to generate such debate!

I'm afraid that the idea that he only had the potential of being a british subject doesn't hold water. He was at birth a Citizen of the UK and Colonies(CUKC) by dint of the british law at the time it required no overt action by him or his parents. In contrast, his mother did have the potential to be a CUKC following her marraige but that would have required an overt act - she would have had to have gone to a UK consulate, register and swear an oath of allegiance.

This doesn't challlenge his US Citizenship at birth and unless there something amazing we don't know about he's got no British or Kenyan Citizenship now. The efforts by Mario and Leo to 'prove' otherwise are so flawed as to make me want to cry!

I know I can't be President but its because I'm a dingbat, not because of citizenship issues.

I know you'd liven up the White House!

There are a number of ways that the US government could get information establishing one of its citizens having dual citizenship, but it seems looking at the immigration dossier of his/her parents is not one of them. In any case, Obama was an NBC and there are very few ways an NBC can lose citizenship, whereas in the past a naturalized citizen could lose US citizenship by simply voting in the other country.

I'm not aware of US expatriation laws ever having considered the act of voting to be material. As far as I know, and I invite any corrections, US law has always required emigration to another country coupled with an affirmative act that shows the clear intention of the citizen to abandon his American citizenship. At one time, the taking of a naturalization oath to another country was considered to have met that requirement, e.g., a US citizen moving to Italy and becoming an Italian citizen by taking a citizenship oath as required by Italian law. With the passage of modern (20th century) immigration laws, the courts have rejected that approach, essentially holding that if we are to strip an American citizen of his American citizenship, it can only be done through a clear statutory mandate passed by Congress. Congress, in turn, has laid out the requirements to prove abandonment of citizenship and those requirements are onerous, starting with a requirement of proof that the abandonment was "intentional." See 8 U.S.C. 1481.

There are a number of ways that the US government could get information establishing one of its citizens having dual citizenship, but it seems looking at the immigration dossier of his/her parents is not one of them. In any case, Obama was an NBC and there are very few ways an NBC can lose citizenship, whereas in the past a naturalized citizen could lose US citizenship by simply voting in the other country.

I'm not aware of US expatriation laws ever having considered the act of voting to be material.

.....Also, enlisting in the military of another country is a definite act of renouncement, even if the oath doesn't do that expressly. ...

Not necessarily. See Advice about Possible Loss of U.S. Citizenship and Foreign Military Service, published by the State Department, and cases cited therein.

Not necessarily. See Advice about Possible Loss of U.S. Citizenship and Foreign Military Service, published by the State Department, and cases cited therein.

I think the lesson to be drawn from this interesting discussion is that being born in Hawaii and moving with your mommy to Indonesia at the age of 5 for a year or two does not constitute an intentional relinquishment of your US citizenship.

New Docket Entries!




A Note: While the focus on Rhodes & Barnett (and Kerchner) is understandable, I think it's time to start paying attention here. When Barnett and Kerchner get dismissed, this case will be "rediscovered" by the birthers. The case is also somewhat different that the other birther cases IN THAT the cause of action is based solely on FOIA.

(At base, of course - Allen is like all the other birther cases, basing its claims on fear-based speculation about Obama.)

I'm confused by the motion for partial dismissal.

1. Is Allen entitled to any existing records that pertain to Lolo Soetero and Stanley Dunham, because they are deceased?

With respect to your request for records pertaining to the deceased Stanley Ann Dunham, the USCIS
observes that, according to your request and appeal, Ms. Dunham was a native-born U.S. citizen; as
such, the USCIS would not be expected to maintain an alien file regarding her. Nonetheless, the
USCIS has, at its discretion, conducted a search of the Alien File/Centra/Index System for records
maintained under, and retrievable by reference 10, that name and possible associated aliases. That
search failed to uncover any responsive records. The USCIS has also commenced a search for
records maintained under, and retrievable by reference to, the name Lola Soetoro (also deceased).[2] At such time as records pertaining to Lola Soetoro are located, the USCIS will disclose all
nonexempt, non.privileged portions of the record to you. To the extent that you seek official records
pertaining to the administration of U.S. passport operations, such records are generated and
controlled by the U.S. Department of State. Any request for access to such information, therefore,
should be filed with that agency. Records of international border crossings (entry/exit records) are
generated and maintained by U.S. Customs and Border Protection; requests for such information
should be filed with that agency.

[2] Because both these individuals are widely known to be deceased, the USCIS waives, at its discretion, your obligation to provide proof of death. See 6 C.F.R. § 5.3.

2. The DOJ's basis for moving to partially dismiss is the exhaustion of administrative remedies doctrine. They apparently believe that the FOIA request as to President Obama can be dismissed on the pleadings because he is alive, but that Soetero/Dunham records are more appropriate for summary judgment proceedings presumably because they're deceased. Why?

Because Defendants’ privacy-waiver regulations do not apply to deceased persons, Defendants do not seek to dismiss Allen’s claims insofar as they relate to records concerning Stanley Dunham or Lolo Soetoro. These records are beyond the scope of this motion to dismiss and will be addressed in a later motion for summary judgment.

Stop splitting needles!

Yes, apparently, at least some. See Exhibit F in (Attachment# 1-Exhibit Defs.' Exhibits A-J. Excerpt:



I don't know. The Motion reads (fn 4):
... i can only speculate that they can get motion to dismiss as to Obama, because of dismissal is appropriate for failure to abide by the regulations (by obtaining Obama's consent). Since consent is not required of deceased persons, they can't assert that defense, but plan to assert a claim for summary judgment. Which, I know, is restating what they said and not providing any more clarification, but ... that's the best I can come up with.

So, do you agree that he'll get his stupid records for Soetero and (if any exist) Dunham, but regardless of that his claim still fails on summary judgment for failure to exhaust?

I believe that voting in another country's elections has been considered as a renouncement of U.S. citizenshp.

FWIW, my 18-year old son is a dual British-American national, holds passports and birth certificates from both countries, and is registered to vote in both countries.

British national, multiple birth certificates... he sounds like a future Obama!

It wouldn't even be white! I'd likely paint it a fetching shade of pink with a big lavender door. And all visiting dignitaries would have to meet and pet all the cats!

It wouldn't even be white! I'd likely paint it a fetching shade of pink with a big lavender door. And all visiting dignitaries would have to meet and pet all the cats!

10/06/2009 16 ORDER granting 11 Motion to file Amended complaint. Signed by Judge Frank R Zapata on 10/5/09.(KMF, ) (Entered: 10/06/2009)

10/06/2009 17 AMENDED COMPLAINT against Department of Homeland Security, US Department of State, et al., filed by Kenneth L. Allen.(KMF, ) (Entered: 10/06/2009)

Nah, he's a musician. It's his younger brother (13 tomorrow) who wants to be President someday. Well, that or an actor, he hasn't made up his mind yet. Come to think of it, it might be easier to find success in politics than in the acting world.

It wouldn't even be white! I'd likely paint it a fetching shade of pink with a big lavender door. And all visiting dignitaries would have to meet and pet all the cats!