Creationism and other anti-science movements

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Suranis
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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#176

Post by Suranis » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:51 pm

Not really. As hell being down could be inferred to be the Center of the Earth. which is where Dante's Inferno put it. Dante even had Gravity reversing after they walked over satan and started his journey back up.

And I quickly looked up a bible commentary site.

https://bible.org/question/where-hell-located
Where is Hell is located?

Actually, the Bible does not tell us where Hell is located. In 2 Pet. 2:4, the statement, “cast them into hell,” has been translated by some as “cast down to hell,” but the Greek actually means, “cast into tartarus,” a place of torment and confinement. Others have sought to use Eph. 4:9, “(Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?” to indicate that hell was in the center of the earth, but this is questionable because the passage is talking about the grave, not hell. Compare the comment below from the Bible Knowledge Commentary.
4:9-10. Verses 9-11 serve as a commentary on two words of the quotation in verse 8, namely, ascended (vv. 9-10) and “gave” (v. 11). In verses 9-10 Paul commented on the words He ascended. These two verses are parenthetical in thought because the issue of the passage is the giving of gifts. Before Christ could ascend He had to descend. What is meant by to the lower, earthly regions, literally, “into the lower parts of earth”? The genitive “of” can be taken in three ways: (1) “Into the lower parts, namely, the earth” (a genitive of apposition). This would refer to Christ’s incarnation, His “descent” to the earth. (2) “Into the parts lower than the earth” (a genitive of comparison). This would mean that Christ descended into hades between His death and resurrection. (3) “Into the lower parts which belong to the earth” (a genitive of possession). This would refer to Christ’s death and His burial in the grave. The third view best fits the context because in His death Christ had victory over sin and redeemed those who would be given as “gifts” to the church.$
In essence, we can simply know that hell, both the temporary location of all unbelievers until the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev. 20, and the final place called the lake of fire are somewhere in God’s boundless universe.
Basically you have to stretch VERY hard to have that as a biblical justification for a flat earth.

And in any case, the Globe of the Earth could be said to be suspended between Heaven and Hell, so being "down" does not mean much.
Edit: Indeed, Jesus just spoke of "a great void" being fixed between heaven and hell in one of his parables


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ZekeB
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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#177

Post by ZekeB » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:55 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:37 pm
I think the Flat Earth thing is not explicit in Scripture but inferred from Heaven always being “above” and Hell “below.”

Four corners? So, earth is not even a pizza pan but a mere cookie sheet? Crimini! The very thought!
It's criminal if they use something other than tomato sauce. Taco pizza is also criminal.


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Žluté vlasy se k oranžové tváři nehodí.

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mmmirele
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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#178

Post by mmmirele » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:56 pm

GreatGrey wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:45 pm
The Bible Museum opens...



I wished them the same success as Ken Ham’s Ark Encounter.
The Museum of the Bible is problematic for a number of reasons:

1) It's pretty much from an Evangelical Protestant viewpoint, which, obviously, is going to exclude many other viewpoints.

2) Some of the items in the MotB, while authentic, may be of iffy provenance or actually looted. We do know that Steve Green, the guy who paid for this thing, had to surrender several hundred cuneiform tablets and about 4,000 bullae or seals because all of these had been looted from Iraq. (In the process, Green may have been funding Al Qaeda, Islamic State, or any number of terrorist organizations.)

3) Scholars who are in the know believe that some, if not all, of the 13 Dead Sea Scroll fragments (and I do mean *fragments*, these things are TINY) are flat out forgeries. This article from the Chronicle of Higher Education gives a lot of background on the "Green collection."

http://www.chronicle.com/article/dc-s-n ... s-a/241763

Here's an academic paper that goes into some more detail about the issues with Dead Sea Scrolls fragments found post-2002:

http://www.bibleinterp.com/PDFs/Justnes ... sen%20.pdf

It includes this bit about a very unusual fragment that seems to be tailor made for the Evangelical market, and was bought by the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary:
n 2010 the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary buys a tiny fragment that - lo and behold - happens to contain text from both Leviticus 18 and 20 both passages in which homosexuality is designated as an abomination. Because of its alleged “theological significance” it even carried a special price tag. In the words of Bruce McCoy: “The particular passage is a timeless truth from God’s word to the global culture today.”
11
(My response: Uh NOPE. I'd remind that idiot how those books also have as a timeless truth that women are property. They can just **** right off!)

And for those of you who absolutely MUST get into the weeds, here's a technical academic paper about nine recently identified Dead Sea Scrolls fragments, which the authors consider to be "dubious." Includes pictures and a ton of very technical discussion about things such as "delamination," sediment deposition, and that sort of thing. (I was personally just geeking out!)

https://michaellanglois.org/medias/davi ... 89-228.pdf

ETA: I forgot the list of prices for some of these things! We're talking tiny, tiny scraps of papyrus or animal skin going for hundreds of thousands of dollars or more:

https://lyingpen.com/2017/08/17/the-pos ... rice-list/



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Foggy
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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#179

Post by Foggy » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:15 am

RTH10260 wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:06 pm
Do we get a firsthand BOTG report from the local undercover Rooster :?:
No, because everybody loves to kick the poor ol' rooster around whenever they're bored or havin' a bad day, but nobody bothers to keep me informed of local events, boo hoo, sniff, sniff, where's mah hankie?

I would have loved to be BOTG for this profoundly unimportant event, but I'm a health insurance agent in the middle of a shortened enrollment period, and I'm BIZZY LATELY. I don't have time to keep up on current events.

Also, there must be some sort of SovCit information/training seminars going on somewhere in Rawly, but I can't find them. Woe is me, woe I say!

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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#180

Post by Volkonski » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:03 am

:roll:

The thing about the flat earthers that drives me crazy is that it is possible to observe with your naked eyes that the surface of the earth is curved.

Just go to the seaside and watch a ship disappear bit by bit as it sails away from you. You don't even need to be by the sea. Go somewhere rural and flat. Drive toward a tall structure like a radio tower. Note how it appears to rise out of the ground as you get closer.

Or find a tall building. See how far you can see at ground level then go to the top of the building and see how much further you can see.

Or get on the phone with a friend who lives some distance due south or north of you. Compare the length of the shadow of a yardstick at both locations at the same time. The yardstick closer to the equator will have a shorter shadow. (This won't always work if both of you are between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn).

These are easy observations.


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Slartibartfast
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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#181

Post by Slartibartfast » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:30 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:03 am
:roll:

The thing about the flat earthers that drives me crazy is that it is possible to observe with your naked eyes that the surface of the earth is curved.

Just go to the seaside and watch a ship disappear bit by bit as it sails away from you. You don't even need to be by the sea. Go somewhere rural and flat. Drive toward a tall structure like a radio tower. Note how it appears to rise out of the ground as you get closer.

Or find a tall building. See how far you can see at ground level then go to the top of the building and see how much further you can see.

Or get on the phone with a friend who lives some distance due south or north of you. Compare the length of the shadow of a yardstick at both locations at the same time. The yardstick closer to the equator will have a shorter shadow. (This won't always work if both of you are between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn).

These are easy observations.
Pretty much everything of that sort is easily disproven on paper with flat earther math, which consists of implicitly assuming that the observer's eyes are at ground level.


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nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#182

Post by maydijo » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:11 am

Volkonski wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:03 am
:roll:

The thing about the flat earthers that drives me crazy is that it is possible to observe with your naked eyes that the surface of the earth is curved.

Just go to the seaside and watch a ship disappear bit by bit as it sails away from you. You don't even need to be by the sea. Go somewhere rural and flat. Drive toward a tall structure like a radio tower. Note how it appears to rise out of the ground as you get closer.

Or find a tall building. See how far you can see at ground level then go to the top of the building and see how much further you can see.

Or get on the phone with a friend who lives some distance due south or north of you. Compare the length of the shadow of a yardstick at both locations at the same time. The yardstick closer to the equator will have a shorter shadow. (This won't always work if both of you are between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn).

These are easy observations.
That's just God tricking you, like how he buries fossils that are millions of years old to test your faith. You're definitely going to hell now!



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Fortinbras
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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#183

Post by Fortinbras » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:32 am

Flat Earthers have a zillion excuses about all the defects in Flat Earth 'theory' -- usually involving explanations built on alleged optical effects or physical effects that are otherwise unknown to sentient beings. At the same time, FEs seem incapable of comprehending any sort of information about map projections or any other details about flat maps.

For example, the FE's most commonly used image of the earth is a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant projection map (similar to the map on the UN flag) with Antarctica spread thin along the rim of the circular map - the FE's usual explanation is that Antarctica provides ice walls that reduce the risk of ships and travelers reaching and fall off "the edge". The fact that ocean liners regularly circumnavigate Antarctica and thereby prove that it is not surrounding the rest of the planet is studiously ignored.

On the other hand, the Republicans seem to be comforted with the thought that rising sea levels are not a threat because the additional water will simply slosh over the edge.



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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#184

Post by RoadScholar » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:40 am

Slartibartfast wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:30 pm
Volkonski wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:03 am
:roll:

The thing about the flat earthers that drives me crazy is that it is possible to observe with your naked eyes that the surface of the earth is curved.

Just go to the seaside and watch a ship disappear bit by bit as it sails away from you. You don't even need to be by the sea. Go somewhere rural and flat. Drive toward a tall structure like a radio tower. Note how it appears to rise out of the ground as you get closer.

Or find a tall building. See how far you can see at ground level then go to the top of the building and see how much further you can see.

Or get on the phone with a friend who lives some distance due south or north of you. Compare the length of the shadow of a yardstick at both locations at the same time. The yardstick closer to the equator will have a shorter shadow. (This won't always work if both of you are between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn).

These are easy observations.
Pretty much everything of that sort is easily disproven on paper with flat earther math, which consists of implicitly assuming that the observer's eyes are at ground level.
And that’s disprovable, because Flat Earthers’ eyes are obviously at ass level.


The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#185

Post by Somerset » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:04 am

Volkonski wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:03 am
:roll:

The thing about the flat earthers that drives me crazy is that it is possible to observe with your naked eyes that the surface of the earth is curved.

Just go to the seaside and watch a ship disappear bit by bit as it sails away from you. You don't even need to be by the sea. Go somewhere rural and flat. Drive toward a tall structure like a radio tower. Note how it appears to rise out of the ground as you get closer.

Or find a tall building. See how far you can see at ground level then go to the top of the building and see how much further you can see.

Or get on the phone with a friend who lives some distance due south or north of you. Compare the length of the shadow of a yardstick at both locations at the same time. The yardstick closer to the equator will have a shorter shadow. (This won't always work if both of you are between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn).

These are easy observations.
Sailors have always know that the earth is a sphere :-)



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Chilidog
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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#186

Post by Chilidog » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:47 am

I thought that the biggest give away that the museum’s Dead Sea fragments are fake is that they were written with a Sharpie.



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TollandRCR
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Re: Creationism and other anti-science movements

#187

Post by TollandRCR » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:56 am

This set of observations misses the fundamebtsl point: GOD SAID. For example, He said Four Corners, and he meant it.


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