Another Shooting

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Fortinbras
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Fortinbras » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:18 pm

I suggest we set up a new prediction/opinion poll:

1. How many days until the next mass shooting (you may use decimal fractions).

2. How many years before Congress enacts meaningful legislation (you may use exponential numbers).

Grumpy Old Guy
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Grumpy Old Guy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:55 pm

Fortinbras wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:18 pm
I suggest we set up a new prediction/opinion poll:

1. How many days until the next mass shooting (you may use decimal fractions).


2. How many years before Congress enacts meaningful legislation (you may use exponential numbers).
Question 1: My guess 12 days
Question 2: To infinity an beyond!

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Slartibartfast
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Slartibartfast » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:52 am

Fortinbras wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:18 pm
I suggest we set up a new prediction/opinion poll:

1. How many days until the next mass shooting (you may use decimal fractions).

And what if I want to use irrational or even non-algebraic numbers? I pick (πe3)1/2 days (a little less than 8).

2. How many years before Congress enacts meaningful legislation (you may use exponential numbers).

Technically speaking, every number can be written in exponential form as itself to the first power (or in infinitely many other ways too [also]).

I'll go with 22 years.
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nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sluffy1 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:51 am

Tiredretiredlawyer
The Air Force seems to have a ho-hum, it's just paperwork, attitude, when this is life preserving paperwork -ESPECIALLY- with a conviction and a dishonorable discharge. It should be handled everyday as a top priority. Someone's butt is going to get chewed big time and it should.
Jeff Flake said there had been only a single domestic violence record submitted from the armed services to the background checks system since 2007.

“Unless we’re to assume there’s been only been one case of domestic violence in the military over that point of time, we have a problem. We have a loophole here that needs to be closed,” said Flake.

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neeneko
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by neeneko » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:24 am

Sluffy1 wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:51 am
Jeff Flake said there had been only a single domestic violence record submitted from the armed services to the background checks system since 2007.
Huh. I wonder who that person pissed off in order to be the single instance that got processed.

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Tiredretiredlawyer
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:02 pm

Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:55 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:18 pm
I suggest we set up a new prediction/opinion poll:

1. How many days until the next mass shooting (you may use decimal fractions).


2. How many years before Congress enacts meaningful legislation (you may use exponential numbers).
Question 1: My guess 12 days
Question 2: To infinity an beyond!
Question 1: 14 days (Jeebus! I hate writing this!)
Question 2: When a congress critter's child or grandchild gets killed.
“I’ve been hooked since my first smell of C-4.” Linda Cox, first female Air Force Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician, first to lead her own unit, go to war, be awarded a Bronze Star, and hold the highest enlisted rank of chief master sergeant.

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Fortinbras
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Fortinbras » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:14 pm

The NRA, et al., blaming the Air Force for not telling civilian authorities that Devin Kelley was not well-wrapped is a cheap red herring.

To begin with, USAF psych evaluations are made to a specific standard - not commonly used by civilian shrinks, and are sort of unreliable. That the Air Force thought that "chaplain counseling" would work on Kelley is indication of sloppy psych standards, etc.

But even so, if the Air Force had communicated its psych reports on Kelley to the appropriate civilian agencies, and those agencies had been conscientious, Kelley could still have gotten his hands on one or more very serious firearms. This was Texas, probably more guns than Bibles in Texas.

In fact the current emphasis on psychiatrists snitching to the police to the impede someone's access to guns may actually discourage a great many people who need psych care from going to get it for fear that talking to a shrink may be used to obstruct their access to hunting guns and the like.

What we need to do, of course, is set up those annoying airport metal detectors at the doors of every church. It wouldn't be a perfect defense but it might eliminate the more simple-minded psychopathic killers. And tell the churches that they should discourage attendance by people with troubled souls.

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maydijo
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by maydijo » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:14 pm

Fortinbras wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:18 pm
I suggest we set up a new prediction/opinion poll:

1. How many days until the next mass shooting (you may use decimal fractions).

2. How many years before Congress enacts meaningful legislation (you may use exponential numbers).
1. I'm surprised one hasn't happened already, as the average is slightly under 1 mass shooting a day
2. When hell freezes over, then reheats, then freezes over again

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:18 pm

Fortinbras wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:14 pm
The NRA, et al., blaming the Air Force for not telling civilian authorities that Devin Kelley was not well-wrapped is a cheap red herring.

To begin with, USAF psych evaluations are made to a specific standard - not commonly used by civilian shrinks, and are sort of unreliable. That the Air Force thought that "chaplain counseling" would work on Kelley is indication of sloppy psych standards, etc.

But even so, if the Air Force had communicated its psych reports on Kelley to the appropriate civilian agencies, and those agencies had been conscientious, Kelley could still have gotten his hands on one or more very serious firearms. This was Texas, probably more guns than Bibles in Texas.

In fact the current emphasis on psychiatrists snitching to the police to the impede someone's access to guns may actually discourage a great many people who need psych care from going to get it for fear that talking to a shrink may be used to obstruct their access to hunting guns and the like.

What we need to do, of course, is set up those annoying airport metal detectors at the doors of every church. It wouldn't be a perfect defense but it might eliminate the more simple-minded psychopathic killers. And tell the churches that they should discourage attendance by people with troubled souls.
This has nothing to do with the internal psyche evals of the AF, it has to do with a CONVICTION of a domestic violence charge that was never REPORTED. He can be as crazy as a shit house rat and the AF would not have run afoul of any actual LAWS, until he got the CONVICTION, which the law says must be REPORTED. That's not a red herring, it's a failure by the AF in following the LAW.

ETA: Since the church shooter went in after services started and immediately started firing, what good would have a metal detector done? At most, the blaring alarm would have just added to the chaos. And several states already have laws on the books allowing trained church members to come armed to services, so, yeah....not a real effective solution.

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HilltownGrrl
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by HilltownGrrl » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:31 pm

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:02 pm
Question 2: When a congress critter's child or grandchild gets killed.
I'm cynically guessing this still won't do it. If it's a Dem's child/grandchild killed they'll "thoughts & prayers". If it's a GOP's child/grandchild, they might sound a little more caring, possibly a bit more angry, but they still won't do a thing.

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Azastan
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Azastan » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:46 pm

HilltownGrrl wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:31 pm
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:02 pm
Question 2: When a congress critter's child or grandchild gets killed.
I'm cynically guessing this still won't do it. If it's a Dem's child/grandchild killed they'll "thoughts & prayers". If it's a GOP's child/grandchild, they might sound a little more caring, possibly a bit more angry, but they still won't do a thing.
Even more cynically, when half of the republicans in Congress get murdered in a few short minutes--maybe, just maybe.

Perhaps I should up that to--when 75% of the republicans in Congress get murdered in a few short minutes. But I'm not holding my breath.

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:50 pm

Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:18 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:14 pm
The NRA, et al., blaming the Air Force for not telling civilian authorities that Devin Kelley was not well-wrapped is a cheap red herring.

To begin with, USAF psych evaluations are made to a specific standard - not commonly used by civilian shrinks, and are sort of unreliable. That the Air Force thought that "chaplain counseling" would work on Kelley is indication of sloppy psych standards, etc.

But even so, if the Air Force had communicated its psych reports on Kelley to the appropriate civilian agencies, and those agencies had been conscientious, Kelley could still have gotten his hands on one or more very serious firearms. This was Texas, probably more guns than Bibles in Texas.

In fact the current emphasis on psychiatrists snitching to the police to the impede someone's access to guns may actually discourage a great many people who need psych care from going to get it for fear that talking to a shrink may be used to obstruct their access to hunting guns and the like.

What we need to do, of course, is set up those annoying airport metal detectors at the doors of every church. It wouldn't be a perfect defense but it might eliminate the more simple-minded psychopathic killers. And tell the churches that they should discourage attendance by people with troubled souls.
This has nothing to do with the internal psyche evals of the AF, it has to do with a CONVICTION of a domestic violence charge that was never REPORTED. He can be as crazy as a shit house rat and the AF would not have run afoul of any actual LAWS, until he got the CONVICTION, which the law says must be REPORTED. That's not a red herring, it's a failure by the AF in following the LAW.

ETA: Since the church shooter went in after services started and immediately started firing, what good would have a metal detector done? At most, the blaring alarm would have just added to the chaos. And several states already have laws on the books allowing trained church members to come armed to services, so, yeah....not a real effective solution.
You said, it, Sugar!!!!
These convictions ARE SUPPOSED to be registered in the NCIC which is nationwide. That way each law enforcement officer anywhere in the U.S. KNOWS that individual is not to possess a gun. This registry works that's why it is part of the Violence Against Women Act and in state criminal and civil domestic abuse laws nationwide. THE AIR FORCE FUCKED UP BIG TIME!!! This is as serious as the two ships which "lost navigational awareness".
“I’ve been hooked since my first smell of C-4.” Linda Cox, first female Air Force Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician, first to lead her own unit, go to war, be awarded a Bronze Star, and hold the highest enlisted rank of chief master sergeant.

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neeneko
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by neeneko » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:57 pm

maydijo wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:14 pm
1. I'm surprised one hasn't happened already, as the average is slightly under 1 mass shooting a day
Depending on which definition one is using, there probably have been a couple since then, they just haven't been very newsworthy.

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Dan1100 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:05 pm

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:50 pm
Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:18 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:14 pm
The NRA, et al., blaming the Air Force for not telling civilian authorities that Devin Kelley was not well-wrapped is a cheap red herring.

To begin with, USAF psych evaluations are made to a specific standard - not commonly used by civilian shrinks, and are sort of unreliable. That the Air Force thought that "chaplain counseling" would work on Kelley is indication of sloppy psych standards, etc.

But even so, if the Air Force had communicated its psych reports on Kelley to the appropriate civilian agencies, and those agencies had been conscientious, Kelley could still have gotten his hands on one or more very serious firearms. This was Texas, probably more guns than Bibles in Texas.

In fact the current emphasis on psychiatrists snitching to the police to the impede someone's access to guns may actually discourage a great many people who need psych care from going to get it for fear that talking to a shrink may be used to obstruct their access to hunting guns and the like.

What we need to do, of course, is set up those annoying airport metal detectors at the doors of every church. It wouldn't be a perfect defense but it might eliminate the more simple-minded psychopathic killers. And tell the churches that they should discourage attendance by people with troubled souls.
This has nothing to do with the internal psyche evals of the AF, it has to do with a CONVICTION of a domestic violence charge that was never REPORTED. He can be as crazy as a shit house rat and the AF would not have run afoul of any actual LAWS, until he got the CONVICTION, which the law says must be REPORTED. That's not a red herring, it's a failure by the AF in following the LAW.

ETA: Since the church shooter went in after services started and immediately started firing, what good would have a metal detector done? At most, the blaring alarm would have just added to the chaos. And several states already have laws on the books allowing trained church members to come armed to services, so, yeah....not a real effective solution.
You said, it, Sugar!!!!
These convictions ARE SUPPOSED to be registered in the NCIC which is nationwide. That way each law enforcement officer anywhere in the U.S. KNOWS that individual is not to possess a gun. This registry works that's why it is part of the Violence Against Women Act and in state criminal and civil domestic abuse laws nationwide. THE AIR FORCE FUCKED UP BIG TIME!!! This is as serious as the two ships which "lost navigational awareness".
So the question I have. All convictions for anything (and I believe charges too) are supposed to be reported to the NCIC. Were they just selectively not reporting Domestic Violence, or were they not reporting anything? What sorts of crimes weren't showing up on other types of background checks for other types of things? Could you embezzle hundreds of thousands of dollars from the officer's club and have it not show up when you applied for a security clearance or to work in a bank.

If it was everything, then WTF. If it was just Domestic Violence, then why? Process problem or a conscious decision by someone to give wife beaters a break?
"Let's say you're on trial for armed robbery. You say to the judge, 'I forgot armed robbery was illegal.' "

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:15 pm

Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:05 pm
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:50 pm
Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:18 pm


This has nothing to do with the internal psyche evals of the AF, it has to do with a CONVICTION of a domestic violence charge that was never REPORTED. He can be as crazy as a shit house rat and the AF would not have run afoul of any actual LAWS, until he got the CONVICTION, which the law says must be REPORTED. That's not a red herring, it's a failure by the AF in following the LAW.

ETA: Since the church shooter went in after services started and immediately started firing, what good would have a metal detector done? At most, the blaring alarm would have just added to the chaos. And several states already have laws on the books allowing trained church members to come armed to services, so, yeah....not a real effective solution.
You said, it, Sugar!!!!
These convictions ARE SUPPOSED to be registered in the NCIC which is nationwide. That way each law enforcement officer anywhere in the U.S. KNOWS that individual is not to possess a gun. This registry works that's why it is part of the Violence Against Women Act and in state criminal and civil domestic abuse laws nationwide. THE AIR FORCE FUCKED UP BIG TIME!!! This is as serious as the two ships which "lost navigational awareness".
So the question I have. All convictions for anything (and I believe charges too) are supposed to be reported to the NCIC. Were they just selectively not reporting Domestic Violence, or were they not reporting anything? What sorts of crimes weren't showing up on other types of background checks for other types of things? Could you embezzle hundreds of thousands of dollars from the officer's club and have it not show up when you applied for a security clearance or to work in a bank.

If it was everything, then WTF. If it was just Domestic Violence, then why? Process problem or a conscious decision by someone to give wife beaters a break?
GREAT question. In the past, the statistics have shown a higher rate of domestic abuse in the military. This will be interesting to watch.
“I’ve been hooked since my first smell of C-4.” Linda Cox, first female Air Force Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician, first to lead her own unit, go to war, be awarded a Bronze Star, and hold the highest enlisted rank of chief master sergeant.

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:55 pm

Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:05 pm

So the question I have. All convictions for anything (and I believe charges too) are supposed to be reported to the NCIC. Were they just selectively not reporting Domestic Violence, or were they not reporting anything? What sorts of crimes weren't showing up on other types of background checks for other types of things? Could you embezzle hundreds of thousands of dollars from the officer's club and have it not show up when you applied for a security clearance or to work in a bank.

If it was everything, then WTF. If it was just Domestic Violence, then why? Process problem or a conscious decision by someone to give wife beaters a break?
I'm not sure where you got the idea all crimes were reported to NCIC, but only very specific crimes are, and they are entered under very specific conditions. Domestic violence convictions, even though most of them are misdemeanors, are mandated by law to be reported. I'm drawing a blank on any other misdemeanor which might be reported.

States have differing requirements for what crimes are reported to their records systems, and which of the records in those systems are reported to the FBI. That's one of the big reasons why national crime statistics can pretty much say what ever you want them to say. Something reported to your local dept may be written up as an armed robbery (violent crime, person), then reported to the state as a simple theft (non-violent, property), which then goes into the national system as a property crime.
The Files: The NCIC database currently consists of 21 files. There are seven property files containing records of stolen articles, boats, guns, license plates, parts, securities, and vehicles. There are 14 persons files, including: Supervised Release; National Sex Offender Registry; Foreign Fugitive; Immigration Violator; Missing Person; Protection Order; Unidentified Person; Protective Interest; Gang; Known or Appropriately Suspected Terrorist; Wanted Person; Identity Theft; Violent Person; and National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) Denied Transaction. The system also contains images that can be associated with NCIC records to help agencies identify people and property items. The Interstate Identification Index, which contains automated criminal history record information, is accessible through the same network as NCIC.
https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/ncic
Off Topic
My dad was one of the original developers of the NCIC program, and we got a personal tour through President Johnson's ranch by Lady Bird when my dad had to go to some sort of big NCIC planning meeting out there and took us along for a vacation. They sent the wives and kids off during the day and that was one of the places they sent us. I think I was 8 or 10 at the time. We also got to fly in the new Bell jet helicopter.

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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:34 pm

The Second Amendment needs to be amended, following Heller, to ban assault weapons. Right now they're a constitutional right.
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Fortinbras
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Fortinbras » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:46 pm

I suppose that the people in the Sutherland Church were generating thoughts and prayers at the very moment the shooting started.

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Danraft » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:52 pm

As a Texan regarding gun ownership.
Texas is, or was at this time, ..
30th in the Nation for number of gun owners.
I will note that those who do own tend to have many...
Dan

https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-owners-pe ... ns-3325153

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Shizzle Popped » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:21 pm

Faith Hill and Tim McGraw from their new Billboard Magazine interview:
http://www.billboard.com/articles/colum ... story-2017
“Look, I’m a bird hunter -- I love to wing-shoot,” says McGraw. “However, there is some common sense that’s necessary when it comes to gun control. They want to make it about the Second Amendment every time it’s brought up. It’s not about the Second Amendment.”

Hill adds, “In reference to the tragedy in Las Vegas, we knew a lot of people there. The doctors that [treated] the wounded, they saw wounds like you’d see in war. That’s not right. Military weapons should not be in the hands of civilians. It’s everyone’s responsibility, including the government and the National Rifle Association, to tell the truth. We all want a safe country.”
That’s not an easy stand to take for a country music star. I may have to buy their new album.

PS. I'm not 100% sure where I stand on gun control but I'm probably further to the right than most people here. Guns are kind of a given in my house and we own a couple. I didn't grow up with guns in the house but my wife's father ran the local gun club when she was a teenager, so she did. Plus, my son pulled tours in Iraq and Afghanistan as a sniper and he shoots in competitions, so guns come and go when he's in the area. He carries a pistol when he can and I don't have a problem with that. I have a major problem with the average idiot like me carrying a pistol in public. I'm not a great shot with a handgun and I don't have the kind of training I think you need to be able shoot accurately in a live fire situation. Very few people do. I'm reasonably good with a rifle and I admit that there's a certain satisfaction in hitting an 8" target at 400 yards. I understand the appeal, but I don't think it should be nearly as easy as it is for the average person to buy what is essentially an army machine gun with the auto-fire disabled. At the very least we should be able to agree that nobody needs 20 or 30 round magazines. It won't stop mass shooters but smaller magazines would at least slow them down. My son's army issued sniper rifle (Remington M2010 of one version or another) only comes with a 5 round magazine so limiting "sport rifles" to 10 rounds would seem like an easy call. However, with so many of these things already out there it's not going to be easy to roll back. Anyway, that's my 2 cents, for what it's worth.
If a deficit spending, constant golfing, blame shirking, Russia lover is your guy then the next time somebody asks "Hey conservatives,do you love America?" you have to say "Sure,but not as much as I love my side winning."
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Fortinbras
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Fortinbras » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:00 pm

Even a conscientious ban on sellilng guns to everyone nailed for domestic violence, psych problems, felonies, etc, would probably not do much good.
There's already a law on the books prohibiting convicted felons as well as fugitive from having guns ... but they seem to have little trouble getting their hands on guns. Same if we add more categories, and even if we try to enforce the ban diligently.

Already too many firearms, some quite old but still deadly, up in grandpa's attic, and in Aunt Edna's garage. Just too easy for a determined shooter to get his hands on a gun if he's willing to accept one that isn't bright shiny new from a licensed and regulated gun store.

We need a multi-layered remedy: (1) fewer guns lying around as inheritances, (2) some legislation to stem the flood of new guns entering the market, (3) probably more restricted categories and in any case diligent enforcement of whatever restrictions are in place.

Trump wants to revoke Scientology's tax exemption, ... why not also revoke the NRA's.

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by MN-Skeptic » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:22 pm

Fortinbras wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:00 pm
Even a conscientious ban on selling guns to everyone nailed for domestic violence, psych problems, felonies, etc, would probably not do much good.
There's already a law on the books prohibiting convicted felons as well as fugitive from having guns ... but they seem to have little trouble getting their hands on guns. Same if we add more categories, and even if we try to enforce the ban diligently.
I know I see this claim, but it falls into the category of trying to prove a negative. Yes, a lot of bad folks get their hands on guns, but how many bad folks are stopped from buying guns?

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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sam the Centipede » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:49 am

MN-Skeptic wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:22 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:00 pm
Even a conscientious ban on selling guns to everyone nailed for domestic violence, psych problems, felonies, etc, would probably not do much good.
There's already a law on the books prohibiting convicted felons as well as fugitive from having guns ... but they seem to have little trouble getting their hands on guns. Same if we add more categories, and even if we try to enforce the ban diligently.
I know I see this claim, but it falls into the category of trying to prove a negative. Yes, a lot of bad folks get their hands on guns, but how many bad folks are stopped from buying guns?
I guess the short answer to your question is "a lot" because gun controls work in every civilized country that has them. The predilection for mass murder (with optional shooter suicide) is very much a US phenomenon with no parallel elsewhere, especially if politically and religiously inspired terrorism are excluded.

US statistics always look bad because the population is large. But add together all the other similar countries and I doubt that the totals would come close.

The missing component in the US is the will to change and the determination to say that love of guns is a perversion and wrong. In other countries, gun lovers (I mean gun lovers, not gun owners with a gun or two for sport) are regarded with great suspicion, rather as one might regard some expressing pedophilic or ephebophilic views in the US. And why not?

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RVInit
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by RVInit » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:50 am

Some people make it easy to demonstrate the difference between a gun owner and a gun lover. If your banner photo on Facebook is a photo of your oh-so-beloved military style weapon (usually with the obligatory flag somewhere in the background) in spite of the fact that you are married with spouse and three kids, you might want to consider that you are a gun lover rather than a gun owner.
"I know that human being and fish can coexist peacefully"
--- George W Bush

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pipistrelle
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by pipistrelle » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:56 am

RVInit wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:50 am
Some people make it easy to demonstrate the difference between a gun owner and a gun lover. If your banner photo on Facebook is a photo of your oh-so-beloved military style weapon (usually with the obligatory flag somewhere in the background) in spite of the fact that you are married with spouse and three kids, you might want to consider that you are a gun lover rather than a gun owner.
Or you're a Russian.

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