Another Shooting

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Sluffy1
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sluffy1 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:57 pm

Didn't the armed citizen only engage after the carnage was over and the person was fleeing?
..and his AR was empty. 15 empty 30 round magazines at scene...
also, the pastor says he knew the shooter and wanted him out of the church.. the guy may have been a church member.. I guess.

Grumpy Old Guy
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Grumpy Old Guy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:07 pm

Slim Cognito wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:35 pm
I'm always afraid to click this thread when I see it trending. I'm afraid it's going to be a new incident.
I am sure there were other shootings since this one, just not as interesting (gruesome).

This one http://www.thestate.com/news/local/crim ... 18466.html
http://www.tmz.com/2017/11/07/boosie-co ... ts-firing/
http://www.9news.com/news/crime/1-injur ... /489936930

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RVInit
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by RVInit » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:12 pm

Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:07 pm
Slim Cognito wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:35 pm
I'm always afraid to click this thread when I see it trending. I'm afraid it's going to be a new incident.
I am sure there were other shootings since this one, just not as interesting (gruesome).
Much to my surprise, it looks like there hasn't been a mass* shooting since the Texas church shooting.

* defined as four or more persons (aside from the shooter) deceased or injured.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting
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Grumpy Old Guy
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Grumpy Old Guy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:13 pm

Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:07 pm
Slim Cognito wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:35 pm
I'm always afraid to click this thread when I see it trending. I'm afraid it's going to be a new incident.
There were other shootings since this one, just not as interesting (gruesome).

This one http://www.thestate.com/news/local/crim ... 18466.html
or this: http://www.tmz.com/2017/11/07/boosie-co ... ts-firing/
or this: http://www.9news.com/news/crime/1-injur ... /489936930

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by maydijo » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:14 pm

Sluffy1 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:57 pm
Didn't the armed citizen only engage after the carnage was over and the person was fleeing?
..and his AR was empty. 15 empty 30 round magazines at scene...
also, the pastor says he knew the shooter and wanted him out of the church.. the guy may have been a church member.. I guess.
Not to mention, if the bad guy with a gun can't get a gun in the first place, there's no need for the good guy with a gun to have one, either.

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:20 pm

Sluffy1 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:57 pm
Didn't the armed citizen only engage after the carnage was over and the person was fleeing?
..and his AR was empty. 15 empty 30 round magazines at scene...
also, the pastor says he knew the shooter and wanted him out of the church.. the guy may have been a church member.. I guess.
Every report I've seen said the pastor and his wife were both out of town and a visiting pastor was preaching that day. Was the visiting preacher from the same town? Do you have a link?

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Dan1100 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:21 pm

Sluffy1 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:57 pm
Didn't the armed citizen only engage after the carnage was over and the person was fleeing?
..and his AR was empty. 15 empty 30 round magazines at scene...
also, the pastor says he knew the shooter and wanted him out of the church.. the guy may have been a church member.. I guess.
If the bad guy with a gun had only been able to get a gun that held 6 rounds and had to be reloaded one bullet at a time, then the good guy with a gun, who wouldn't need more than 6 shots to kill one bad guy, would have probably been able to save a lot of lives.
"Let's say you're on trial for armed robbery. You say to the judge, 'I forgot armed robbery was illegal.' "

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RVInit
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by RVInit » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:22 pm

This is disturbing. I was perusing the Defensive Use category in the gun archives and randomly clicked on the View Source of the incident listed on November 2, 2017 in Lafayette, LA

The short story - A man was attempting to break in and steal a car while the car owner was outside the car and distracted. The car owner was able to produce a weapon, shot and killed the man attempting to steal the car, and so far it's being considered justifiable homicide. The fact that it is considered justifiable to kill someone who is stealing a car is what I find disturbing.

https://kadn.com/fatal-shooting-at-home-depot/
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by TexasFilly » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:30 pm



That would be Chris Hurst (D) in Virginia.
I love the poorly educated!!!

I believe Anita Hill!

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Sluffy1
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sluffy1 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:34 am

Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:20 pm
Sluffy1 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:57 pm
Didn't the armed citizen only engage after the carnage was over and the person was fleeing?
..and his AR was empty. 15 empty 30 round magazines at scene...
also, the pastor says he knew the shooter and wanted him out of the church.. the guy may have been a church member.. I guess.
Every report I've seen said the pastor and his wife were both out of town and a visiting pastor was preaching that day. Was the visiting preacher from the same town? Do you have a link?
I'm not even sure if the pastor that I quoted was from the First Baptist or another closer to where the shooter lived.
I hoping the First Baptist pastor and his wife weren't out of town because of those threatening texts the shooter had been sending... I have a feeling though.

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by maydijo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:51 am

I can't imagine any parents who seriously feared for their safety would leave their children behind. If they were out of town because of this man's threats, surely they would've taken their daughter with them.

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Sluffy1
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sluffy1 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:28 am

surely they would've taken their daughter with them.
I'm not so sure.
I doubt they would have expected a incident let alone an massacre if the texts were only threatening towards the mother in law ... and possibly them.
The mother in law wasn't there either.

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:50 am

Sluffy1 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:28 am
surely they would've taken their daughter with them.
I'm not so sure.
I doubt they would have expected a incident let alone an massacre if the texts were only threatening towards the mother in law ... and possibly them.
The mother in law wasn't there either.
Are you just guessing at all this stuff or do you have links to back any of it up? Do we even know for sure the texts we directed at the pastor? There is NO WAY parents would leave a child in danger like that. If the parents believed the threat was credible enough to lean themselves, the daughter would have gone with them.

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:15 am

NOW John Cornyn wants to close loopholes.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... smsnnews11
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:22 am

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:15 am
NOW John Cornyn wants to close loopholes.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... smsnnews11
:shock: Isn't it "too soon"?

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:26 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:22 am
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:15 am
NOW John Cornyn wants to close loopholes.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... smsnnews11
:shock: Isn't it "too soon"?
Yes, for the Texas shooting, but not for the Las Vegas shooting. I stole that from TeaPain on twitter. :-D
“I’ve been hooked since my first smell of C-4.” Linda Cox, first female Air Force Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician, first to lead her own unit, go to war, be awarded a Bronze Star, and hold the highest enlisted rank of chief master sergeant.

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Shizzle Popped » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:03 pm

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Sluffy1
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sluffy1 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:37 pm

Do we even know for sure the texts we directed at the pastor?
I didn't say the texts were directed at the pastor.
We know (it has been reported, we don't really know) threatening texts were sent to the mother-in-law.

It's has also been reported that Sheriff Tackitt said the pastor told him that the shooter "was here at the festival Halloween night, saw him in the crowd.” Tackitt says the pastor told him Devin Kelley had attended services at the church before.)
If I was a church goer that had received threatening texts from a fellow church member I would have told my pastor. Depending on the threat, I also would also have made myself scarce and avoided being anywhere I would have had a likelihood of contact with the aggressor. As I said previously, if those texts included reference to the church or the pastor it would not be a stretch to consider the pastor and his wife felt the same in order to avoid a scene... maybe.. I suppose.
There was no reason for them to imagine the carnage, otherwise the police would have been informed to the possibility of physical harm.... maybe.. I suppose.
There is NO WAY parents would leave a child in danger like that.

Are you just guessing at that or do you have links to back it up?

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by ZekeB » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:41 pm

The press is literally blaming the Air Force for this massacre because of their failure to inform the FBI. I have my doubts. Guns are too readily available and he probably would have gotten several by illegal means. The only thing you can control now is the sale of ammunition and I have my doubts about that working. Thr best they can do now is ban assault weapons; offer buybacks; impose fines of $10,000 plus jail time for possession of an assault rifle. The horse is out of the barn.
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by neeneko » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:56 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:41 pm
Guns are too readily available and he probably would have gotten several by illegal means.
I am not so sure about that. Something we see over and over in mass shootings is they tend to stick to what they can easily attain. Often they are not exactly people immersed in criminal connections and, even if they are willing to put in the extra effort, might not have the social network needed to attain illegal firearms.

Just look at the NV shooter. He easily had the money to get much worse tools if he dipped even a little into illegal markets. He did not even bother with something basic like throwable pipe bombs or tracer rounds, he stuck to what he could by off the shelf from any random store.

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Dan1100 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:25 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:41 pm
The press is literally blaming the Air Force for this massacre because of their failure to inform the FBI. I have my doubts. Guns are too readily available and he probably would have gotten several by illegal means. The only thing you can control now is the sale of ammunition and I have my doubts about that working. Thr best they can do now is ban assault weapons; offer buybacks; impose fines of $10,000 plus jail time for possession of an assault rifle. The horse is out of the barn.
I don't think the horse is out of the barn.

The Federal Firearms Act (FFA) works for the weapons it includes. Very, very few machine guns, sawed off shotguns, silenced pistols, etc that are licensed under the FFA are used in crimes. The rigorous background check combined with the $200 tax/fee keeps the riff-raff out. Since machine guns made after 1986 can't be licensed under the FFA, legal pre-1986 machine guns have over time become the gun range play toys of the very rich instead of the tools of criminals.

There is no reason that the exact same thing (perhaps combined with a buy back) couldn't work for semi-automatics with detachable magazines. You have an AR-15, then you get a choice, either pass a rigorous background check and register it under the FFA and pay the $200, turn it in and collect your $1,000, have it irreversibly converted to only load one bullet at a time into a fixed magazine, or go to federal prison. It would take some time to implement and of course political will that we don't have, but I think it would work.
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by maydijo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:56 pm

It's a common refrain that gun control won't work, that it's too late. But you never really know until you try, do you? People said the same thing about gun control in Australia. I was here for the debates in 1996, I heard the arguments against it. But at the end of the day, most people followed the law. Some didn't - my inlaws, for instance, buried a few guns, because they are a bit conspiracy minded and thought that the government was bringing in gun control to impose tyranny. My husband and I laughed about it (behind their back) and they promptly forgot where they'd buried the guns - and 20 years on they wouldn't be usable anyway. And yes, it is still possible to get a gun on the black market, if you have connections and know where to ask. But shootings are down - suicides are down - there hasn't been a mass shooting since 1996.

I think gun control works for three reasons. The first two have to do with storage, and the last has to do with type of weapon:

1) It prevents accidents. If you have to store your guns safely, there is a much smaller chance that your 2 year old will find your gun and shoot her sister.

2) It gives you time to think. If you have to think before you grab a gun, you have time to consider if it's really the best choice. So many stupid, senseless deaths occur because someone pissed someone else off, and they had a gun handy. They don't think through the consequences. If that person had to stop and go to a gun cabinet and unlock the cabinet and grab a gun and find the ammunition and load the gun, chances are, either the person they're angry with would have the chance to get away, or they'd think, "Hold on, this is really dumb, it's really not worth killing someone because their dog pooped in my yard."

3) Any time you make it harder for people to get their hands on weapons that can cause mass casualty, it's a good thing. Nobody needs an AR-15. They serve no practical purpose, outside of the military. So why should they be widely available? If you want to shoot big guns, join the Army. If you can't pass their background check and mental health tests, I sure as hell don't want you owning a gun as a civilian.

It is actually remarkably easy to get a gun in Australia; you have to take a class, and you have to be licensed, but they will give you the answers to the test during the class, so, as long as you pass the background check, you will get a gun. But because there are laws dictating what types of gun you can own, and because there are laws dictating how the guns are stored (and yes, police do check to make sure that you are storing them appropriately), gun violence has decreased. It's still not perfect. Nothing ever is. But it's better.

The other day a mother accidently drove her car into a classroom in Sydney, killing two 8 year old boys. That is the sort of senseless tragedy that makes sense to me. My heart aches for the children and their families; but my heart also aches for the mother who, in a distracted moment, put her foot on the accellerator instead of on the brake. That night I looked at my own 8 year old son and thanked God that it wasn't him. Then I remembered Sandy Hook. My daughter was 6 when that happened, the same age as so many of the child victims. I can make my peace with a mother accidently driving her car into a classroom. I can never make my peace with a man opening fire on a classroom of six year olds.

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by maydijo » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:38 pm

Came back to add, gun control is effective for a fourth reason - background checks keep people who should not own guns from owning them in the first place. There's no way this shooter in Texas should ever have been allowed to buy a gun in the first place, not with his history of domestic abuse.

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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:52 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:41 pm
The press is literally blaming the Air Force for this massacre because of their failure to inform the FBI. I have my doubts. Guns are too readily available and he probably would have gotten several by illegal means. The only thing you can control now is the sale of ammunition and I have my doubts about that working. Thr best they can do now is ban assault weapons; offer buybacks; impose fines of $10,000 plus jail time for possession of an assault rifle. The horse is out of the barn.
The Air Force is at fault in this - not 100%- but an egregious fault. The law against adjudicated domestic abusers possessing guns has been around since the passage of the first Violence Against Women Act in 1994 - that's 23 years. IIRC, the Air Force spokesman said the paperwork was backlogged or something to that effect. Domestic violence Restraining Orders (called Orders of Protection) in civil courts prohibit gun possession. They are given top priority in Arkansas and are put into a national computer data base and enforced nationwide. From Wikipedia -When a woman—the Wisconsin Coalition Against Domestic Violence generally refers to petitioners as female as most are women[34]—is the beneficiary of an order of protection, per VAWA it is generally enforceable nationwide under the terms of full faith and credit. Although the order may be granted only in a specific state, full faith and credit requires that it be enforced in other states as though the order was granted in their states.18 U.S.C. § 2265[35]

The Air Force seems to have a ho-hum, it's just paperwork, attitude, when this is life preserving paperwork -ESPECIALLY- with a conviction and a dishonorable discharge. It should be handled everyday as a top priority. Someone's butt is going to get chewed big time and it should.
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by TexasFilly » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:15 pm

The head Pastor and his wife, as I understand it, were out of town in two separate locations (possibly with other kids who play sports) when the shooting happen. I have my own feelings about this Pastor*, but am willing to cut him miles of slack because his child had just been murdered. I don't think we should get into victim blaming here.

* My feelings have nothing to do with him being out of town. My son played travel ball with the son of a Lutheran pastor, and he would attend out of town tournaments on weekends and have someone do Sunday services for him on those occasions.
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