Another Shooting

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tencats
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by tencats » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:36 am

maydijo wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:55 pm
And we recognise that tobacco is a public health hazard. We put warning labels on cigarette packets. We spend money educating our children to abstain from smoking. We put age limits in place to ensure that minors can't buy cigarettes. We actively seek to limit advertising for cigarettes, and to make sure that what little advertising is allowed does not appeal to children.
When I read this I remembered reading just a few days ago about this nonsense in the news.
This Bill Would Make It Legal For Toddlers & Young Kids To Hunt With Guns, But It Wouldn't Be The First State To Allow It

Image

Children who are 10 and 11 years old don't have to take a safety training course, but can go on "mentored hunts," the Associated Press reported. This essentially means that they're accompanied by an adult with a hunting license and have to follow certain rules, like only being able to hunt within an arm's reach of the "mentor," according to HuffPost. The mentor hunt also means that there's only one gun on the trip.

However, if the bill is signed into law by Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, there would be no age restrictions at all. This would make it legal for kids under 10 years old to hunt with their parents or guardians, meaning that they would each have guns.
https://www.romper.com/p/this-bill-woul ... it-3226875

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:04 am

Volkonski wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:29 pm
More from Carrie-

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/se ... d_nn_tw_ma
Carrie Matula, who works at a gas station about 150 yards away from the church, told MSNBC that she heard "semiautomatic gunfire" and looked to see what was going on.

"It's a small Baptist church. It’s an older building. I don’t know that they would have security cameras or anything high tech like that. And I know they didn’t have security in the parking lot," she said.

"I never thought it would happen here," Matula added. "This is something that happens in a big city. I would never have thought this would have taken place here. It's just too tight a community. It doesn’t make sense."
Poor Carrie seemed to get everything wrong. I believe she's the one who first mis-identified the shooter, and then said the church had no security cameras. The church tapes all of their sermons and posts them on-line each week.

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pipistrelle
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by pipistrelle » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:28 am

Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:04 am
Volkonski wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:29 pm
More from Carrie-

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/se ... d_nn_tw_ma
Carrie Matula, who works at a gas station about 150 yards away from the church, told MSNBC that she heard "semiautomatic gunfire" and looked to see what was going on.

"It's a small Baptist church. It’s an older building. I don’t know that they would have security cameras or anything high tech like that. And I know they didn’t have security in the parking lot," she said.

"I never thought it would happen here," Matula added. "This is something that happens in a big city. I would never have thought this would have taken place here. It's just too tight a community. It doesn’t make sense."
Poor Carrie seemed to get everything wrong. I believe she's the one who first mis-identified the shooter, and then said the church had no security cameras. The church tapes all of their sermons and posts them on-line each week.
There's no reason an "older building" couldn't have security cameras. That seems like a weird thing to say. Followed by the myth that tight-knit communities don't have violence, which is restricted to "big cities."

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Fortinbras
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Fortinbras » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:56 am

The Texas Atty-Gen has the usual Wayne LaPierre solution, namely congregants should attend church services carrying guns. That way they'll be able to shoot back at whoever ......

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ke ... mg00000009

I don't know a lot about guns, but encouraging people to shoot them in enclosures filled with a lot of innocent bystanders seems like a real effective way to make bad things much much worse.

And there are some churches -- such as Quakers -- who would consider it blasphemous to bring deadly weapons into worship.

At the same time, churches are supposed to be inviting trouble souls to enter.

And, frankly, encouraging a lot of people you don't know very very well to go about armed seems to increase the risk that one of them will lose his temper or become panicky over something and pull out his gun and create a news event.

Just generally the idea grates on my tiny mind.

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Fortinbras
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Fortinbras » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:17 am

Altho the NRA tells us after every mass shooting that we shouldn't rush in legislating, it seems that, nowadays, there is a mass shooting in the US roughly every week ....

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

This pretty much leaves us without any meditation time, or whatever, to start legislating.
I think it's about time that we come up with a legislative solution as quickly as someone else decided to bring a gun to a crowded place.

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neeneko
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by neeneko » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:33 am

Fortinbras wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:56 am
I don't know a lot about guns, but encouraging people to shoot them in enclosure filled with a lot of innocent bystanders seems like a real good way to make bad things much worse.
The 'hero with a gun' thing is mostly marketing and fantasy. Getting into a shootout with a gunman has a better chance of either increasing the number of people hit or the 'hero' getting shot by police since they can not tell the difference.

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ZekeB
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by ZekeB » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:44 am

This gunman would have had 20 of them mowed down before they ever knew what hit them.

Thoughts and prayers work. Has there ever been a repeat at the same place after thoughts and prayers were offered?
Vím o prasatech hodně zajímavých věcí.

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Kendra
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Kendra » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:13 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... nerations/

:snippity:
After spotting the shooter, Jordan said, he ran inside his home, scooped up his son, alerted his wife and rushed his family into their bathroom, where they crouched and hid while calling 911. He said the shooter spotted him as he fled and took a shot that went through his front window, nearly hitting his 2-year-old son.

“I looked at the shooter, and he looked right at me,” he said. When the shooting stopped, Jordan, who works as a medical assistant, ran to the church, hoping to help.

“I walked inside and just walked out. I couldn’t handle it,” he said. “It was bad. A lot of blood and bodies. The pews were knocked over. I’m a medical assistant and medical assisting does not prepare you for this.”
:snippity:

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Volkonski
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Volkonski » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:32 pm


“The suspect’s mother-in-law attended this church,” Freeman Martin, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said during a news conference Monday morning. “We know that he had made threatening texts and we can’t go into detail into that domestic situation that is continuing to be vetted and thoroughly investigated.”

“This was not racially motivated, it wasn’t over religious beliefs, it was a domestic situation going on,” Mr. Martin added.

The moments following the horrific mass shooting on Sunday morning came into clearer view on Monday, as the county sheriff detailed a firefight and car chase that ended with the gunman, Devin P. Kelley, 26, dead after a crash.
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

TexasFilly
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by TexasFilly » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:20 pm

I love the poorly educated!!!

I believe Anita Hill!

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Kendra
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Kendra » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:28 pm


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kate520
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by kate520 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:29 pm

If’n I ever find any GOPers on fire in my general vicinity, I’ll be sure to offer them my thoughts and prayers.
Patriotism is the last refuge of a Scoundrel.
Samuel Johnson
April 7, 1775

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RVInit
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by RVInit » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:31 pm

"Holy" shit!

Conservative writer: God was ‘answering prayers’ of Texas victims by letting them get shot
“It may seem, on the surface, that God was refusing to give such protection to his Texan children,” he writes. “But we are also praying that God would deliver us from evil eternally. Through these same words, we are asking God to deliver us out of this evil world and into his heavenly glory, where no violence, persecution, cruelty, or hatred will ever afflict us again.”
More here. If you can stomach it.

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/11/conser ... -get-shot/
"I know that human being and fish can coexist peacefully"
--- George W Bush

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AndyinPA
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by AndyinPA » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:55 pm

As seems to be common, he had domestic abuse in his background.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/1 ... -have-guns
It’s getting to be a familiar routine: within a day or two of a mass shooting or other mass attack, the reports come out that the killer has a history of domestic violence. That’s once again the case with Devin Patrick Kelley, killer in the Texas church shooting. It was also true of James Fields, who drove a car into a crowd of anti-racist protesters in Charlottesville, Virginia. And Orlando nightclub shooter Omar Mateen and congressional baseball shooter James Hodgkinson and Planned Parenthood shooter Robert Lewis Dear. And that’s to say nothing of the routine stories we hear, the shootings in workplaces or businesses that get shrugged off as “just” a domestic incident.

While domestic violence lurks in the background of so many of the men who’ve launched attacks on the public in some way or other, there’s another reason to want to take guns away from men with records of domestic violence: much more frequently than they shoot into nightclubs or churches, they kill their wives and girlfriends and exes and children. But, as Hannah Levintova and Dana Liebelson report in Mother Jones, there are giant loopholes in the laws intended to protect women from their abusers:

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tencats
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by tencats » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:30 pm

AndyinPA wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:55 pm
As seems to be common, he had domestic abuse in his background.
Texas Gunman Had Assaulted Wife and Stepson Before Church Shooting
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/d ... texas.html
In 2012, while stationed at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, Devin P. Kelley, 26, was charged with “assault on his spouse and assault on their child,” according to the Air Force.

“He assaulted his stepson severely enough that he fractured his skull, and he also assaulted his wife,” said Don Christensen, a retired colonel who was the chief prosecutor for the Air Force. “He pled to intentionally doing it.”

:snippity:

“The only thing that sticks out about him was his dog,” she said.

He had a pit bull puppy that he kept tied up in the sun all day outside of his RV, she said. She also recalled an incident in which the police were called because the man had struck the dog in the head.

The police arrived and there was a standoff for approximately an hour, she said, in which her neighbor refused to come out of his trailer.

Records show Mr. Kelley was charged with cruelty to animals, a misdemeanor, in August 2014. The case was dismissed. He moved out a few weeks later, she said.

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Volkonski
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Volkonski » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:54 pm

Texas church gunman Devin Kelley killed his grandmother-in-law, Lula White, in the massacre Sunday, multiple friends told CNN.

White was the grandmother of Kelley's wife and volunteered frequently at the church, according to friends and her Facebook profile. The friends asked not to be named as the family has decided to not speak to the media about White's death at this time, though a few have posted on social media
.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/us/texas- ... index.html
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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kate520
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by kate520 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:09 pm

Trump says:
Fortunately somebody else had a gun that was shooting in the opposite direction,
Ouch. “Somebody else” just shot themselves in the middle.

This “man”’s thinking is not even as clear as mud.
Patriotism is the last refuge of a Scoundrel.
Samuel Johnson
April 7, 1775

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Volkonski
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Volkonski » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:11 pm

Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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Volkonski
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Volkonski » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:18 pm

I had been wondering about this.
According to local law enforcement, Mr. Kelley had become estranged from his second wife, who at times attended the church.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/d ... .html?_r=0
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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Volkonski
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Volkonski » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:22 pm



This does not include an even larger number of gun suicides.
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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maydijo
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by maydijo » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:34 pm

Gun suicides are an important part of the equation. Your average pro-gun fanatic will tell you that if someone wants to kill themselves, they'll find a way, so gun control won't help. But the truth is that most people who attempt suicide, and survive, get help; and you're much more likely to survive a suicide attempt if you use something less lethal than a gun. It's true that someone who is really hell-bent on killing themselves will find a way, just as it's true that someone who is really hell-bent on killing someone else will find a way. But the idea is to make it as hard as possible for people to make snap decisions that can't be undone, or for people who are hell-bent on killing one person to then easily take out another 10 or 20.

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Fortinbras
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Fortinbras » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:16 pm

I speculate that the shooting sprees somehow follow the domestic violence because the gunman sees (in the domestic violence) the utter collapse of his own family life, which inspires a sort of nihilistic and suicidal frenzy that the whole world or at least the immediate neighborhood should share in his misery AND that he should die very shortly. Or, having done violence to his nearest and dearest, he's also going to punish people with whom he has little emotional connection for whatever disappointments society has dumped on him.

But, at some point, he is aware that what he has done at home (frequently extreme violence, even homicide) pretty much will mean the end of his life, at least as far as breathing outdoor air, when discovered, and so (before that discovery) he figures to go out in a meteoric way.

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maydijo
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by maydijo » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:22 pm

I think it's also because these men actually believe, on a fundamental level, that their wife is their property - that she belongs to them - and so when she crosses him, she must be punished; when her family encourages or helps her to leave, they must be punished because they have, in his mind, stolen from him.

There is, on average, 1 mass shooting a day in the US. How many of these are domestic-violence related? How many of them make news at anything more than a local level? Domestic violence is so common it is almost accepted - not accepted in the sense of, "Well, he has the right," but accepted in the sense of, "Well, these things happen." At the very least, people with domestic violence convictions should not be allowed to purchase guns. But even this is too much for the gun lobby to accept. Through their inaction - or more appropriately, through their actions to ensure that every person, no matter their background, is entitled to own a gun - they, too, are perpetrating this myth that a woman and her body belong to her husband.

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RVInit
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by RVInit » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:37 pm

maydijo wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:22 pm
I think it's also because these men actually believe, on a fundamental level, that their wife is their property - that she belongs to them - and so when she crosses him, she must be punished; when her family encourages or helps her to leave, they must be punished because they have, in his mind, stolen from him.

There is, on average, 1 mass shooting a day in the US. How many of these are domestic-violence related? How many of them make news at anything more than a local level? Domestic violence is so common it is almost accepted - not accepted in the sense of, "Well, he has the right," but accepted in the sense of, "Well, these things happen." At the very least, people with domestic violence convictions should not be allowed to purchase guns. But even this is too much for the gun lobby to accept. Through their inaction - or more appropriately, through their actions to ensure that every person, no matter their background, is entitled to own a gun - they, too, are perpetrating this myth that a woman and her body belong to her husband.
:yeah:
"I know that human being and fish can coexist peacefully"
--- George W Bush

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Slim Cognito
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Re: Another Shooting

Post by Slim Cognito » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:44 pm

maydijo wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:34 pm
Gun suicides are an important part of the equation. Your average pro-gun fanatic will tell you that if someone wants to kill themselves, they'll find a way, so gun control won't help. But the truth is that most people who attempt suicide, and survive, get help; and you're much more likely to survive a suicide attempt if you use something less lethal than a gun. It's true that someone who is really hell-bent on killing themselves will find a way, just as it's true that someone who is really hell-bent on killing someone else will find a way. But the idea is to make it as hard as possible for people to make snap decisions that can't be undone, or for people who are hell-bent on killing one person to then easily take out another 10 or 20.
Worked for an ER many years, typing their reports. I wasn't in the ward when the suicide attempts came in, but I can tell you an awful lot of people who took pills or slit their wrists started having second thoughts as soon as they did the deed, and called 911. Once you've blown off the part of your brain that would like to reconsider, it's too late.

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