USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#101

Post by Kendra » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:18 am

pipistrelle wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:57 pm
TexasFilly wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:22 pm
Wow, the lawyer is as stupid as the client. Cobb and Dowd, what a pair!
Next thing you know, they’ll dine at a popular al fresco restaurant and be overheard by a reporter.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Can Mueller bring the lawyer in for questioning to confirm it was written by him and not Trump? Seriously, asking for a friend.
Edit: Nevermind, Stern answered it, I hadn't finished reading all the newest comments.



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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#102

Post by pipistrelle » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:50 am

maydijo wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:38 pm
I'm not buying the story that the lawyer did it. Unless he's completely incompetent (which could be the case; Trump's really good at hiring idiots) I just can't see a lawyer being that sloppy with his words. Certainly none of the lawyers here would've composed a tweet that poorly written. I think Trump did it, and he's setting up the lawyer for the fall. He does have a history of doing this (see also: the probably nonexistent person who plagiarized Melania's speech for her.)
You're not the only one who thinks so — in that tweet thread there are a lot of comments about how it's the Trump tweet cadence. IANAL and even I would know better to tweet that. If I were a lawyer, I think I'd advise to not say anything, hence my comment up thread about "HAD to say that." No one makes him tweet, yet he continues to put foot in mouth. Not that it's hurt him any. So far.



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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#103

Post by Gregg » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:10 am

It just hit me, and to me its pretty convincing evidence that no lawyer wrote that tweet.

" He has pled guilty to those lies"

What's wrong with this sentence? The word 'pled". I have always wondered what obscure reason there was for the use of what sounds terribly clumsy language when lawyers say "pleaded'. I dunno why, I don't like it, but the proper way to say it is pleaded, and while most non-lawyers would probably say "pled" I have never heard an attorney say it, and have at least one attorney friend who maddeningly corrects me when I do it.

I'm not buying that Dowd wrote it, lawyers don't forget their grammar when they write things that incriminate their clients.


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#104

Post by Addie » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:18 am

Too funny :lol:
pipistrelle wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:57 pm
TexasFilly wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:22 pm
Wow, the lawyer is as stupid as the client. Cobb and Dowd, what a pair!
Next thing you know, they’ll dine at a popular al fresco restaurant and be overheard by a reporter.


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#105

Post by Notorial Dissent » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:21 am

Addie wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:18 am
Too funny :lol:
pipistrelle wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:57 pm
TexasFilly wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:22 pm
Wow, the lawyer is as stupid as the client. Cobb and Dowd, what a pair!
Next thing you know, they’ll dine at a popular al fresco restaurant and be overheard by a reporter.
I'm actually surprised they haven't sent out confidential client information and legal strategy in a press release email. They might just be dumb and incompetent enough to do so.


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#106

Post by Addie » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:49 am

WaPo
In pre-dawn Twitter message, Trump issues a fresh denial about intervening in Flynn investigation

President Trump issued a fresh denial Sunday that he asked former FBI director James B. Comey to halt an investigation into the conduct of his dismissed national security adviser Michael Flynn.

“I never asked Comey to stop investigating Flynn,” Trump said in a pre-dawn message on Twitter. “Just more Fake News covering another Comey lie!”

The tweet was the latest in a running commentary on the case from Trump that began Saturday, a day after Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his interactions with a Russian official. ...

But critics pounced Saturday on Trump, arguing that if he knew at the time of his conversation with Comey that Flynn had lied to the FBI and was under investigation, it may constitute an attempt to obstruct that investigation. ...

Trump lawyer John Dowd drafted the president’s tweet, according to two people familiar with the message. Its authorship could reduce how significantly it communicates anything about when the president knew that Flynn had lied to the FBI, but it also raises questions about the public relations strategy of the president’s chief lawyer.


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#107

Post by Maybenaut » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:51 am

Gregg wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:10 am
It just hit me, and to me its pretty convincing evidence that no lawyer wrote that tweet.

" He has pled guilty to those lies"

What's wrong with this sentence? The word 'pled". I have always wondered what obscure reason there was for the use of what sounds terribly clumsy language when lawyers say "pleaded'. I dunno why, I don't like it, but the proper way to say it is pleaded, and while most non-lawyers would probably say "pled" I have never heard an attorney say it, and have at least one attorney friend who maddeningly corrects me when I do it.

I'm not buying that Dowd wrote it, lawyers don't forget their grammar when they write things that incriminate their clients.
I’m a lawyer. I say “pled.”



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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#108

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:17 am

A review of my California appellate court data base shows that "pled" was considered incorrect in a state Supreme Court case in 1948. Here's the money quote, where the court quotes colloquy between court and counsel in a case:
"Mr. Bledsoe: I might say that we would also offer evidence that he pled [sic] guilty to those charges which were filed."
Stickel v. San Diego Elec. Ry. Co. (1948) 32 Cal.2d 157, 163 fn *. The "[sic]" is apparently the court's.

(See also People v. Gilbert (1944) 25 Cal.2d 422, 429 and Westminster Memorial Park v. County of Orange (1960) 54 Cal.2d 488, 493. In each case the court indicated the use of the word "pled" was incorrect by inserting a "[sic]" after the usage it quoted.)

Perhaps bob, our inveterate legal historian, can find earlier references to this abomination.

After 1948 the word "pled" slowly made its way into court opinions without being considered incorrect. It is today in full blown misuse. The state supreme court most recently used it -- four times! -- this February in Roy Allan Slurry Seal, Inc. v. America Asphalt South, Inc. (2017) 2 Cal.5th 505.

I never use it. Ever.



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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#109

Post by RTH10260 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:53 am




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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#110

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:59 am

"Pled" is not in Black's Law Dictionary.


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#111

Post by Foggy » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:20 am

I bet :sterngard: also says "He fleeded from his pursuers." :doh:


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#112

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:49 am

Foggy wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:20 am
I bet :sterngard: also says "He fleeded from his pursuers." :doh:
No; "ran like shit" is the past tense of flee.



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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#113

Post by Foggy » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:51 am

Off Topic
He bleeded all over the floor.


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#114

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:37 pm

Off Topic
Sigh :nope: . The past tense of "bleed" is "exsanguinated." C'mon, Pappy. Stop Trump-tweeting this stuff.

(PS: All your examples include a double "E" rather than an "E" and "A". What's next, "ski"? Just don't mention "lead.")



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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#115

Post by Foggy » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:47 pm

Off Topic
Me: "He pleaded guilty or he pled guilty?"
Wifehorn: "He pled guilty. I don't think 'pleaded' is proper English."

So you're right, of course, and I shall say pleaded henceforward. She leaded me astray, that lady! :blink:


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#116

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:05 pm

A theory of leaks and pressure.

It appears that Flynn and his lawyers began to negotiate with Mueller's team at the beginning of November, soon after the Manafort indictment. Right around that time there was also a flurry of "leaks" about what Mueller had on Flynn.

How could Mueller legally cause those leaks when grand jury testimony is confidential and leaking from the prosecutor is prohibited?

Easy.

A witness before the grand jury is not prohibited from talking publicly about what he was asked and testified to before the grand jury. Ditto, when asked by investigators. So a witness known to be a blabbermouth (or with a lawyer known to be a blabbermouth) may have been shown Flynn documents that incriminated Flynn. While the witness might know nothing about them, the witness could still leak the information he or she was asked about. Dirty pool? Yes. Illegal? No.

That would have gotten back to Flynn and his lawyers and they would know that Mueller had the goods on Flynn and his son. Leading to the enormous pressure on the Rosetta Stone of the Trump Campaign and leading to him singing for his freedom.



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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#117

Post by Volkonski » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:10 pm

Pleaded vs. Pled

Plead belongs to the same class of verbs as bleed, lead, and feed, and like them it has a past and past participle with a short vowel spelled pled (or sometimes plead, which is pronounced alike). From the beginning, pled has faced competition from the regular form pleaded, which eventually came to predominate in mainstream British English. Pled was and is used in Scottish English, which is likely how it came to American English. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, pled was attacked by many American usage commentators (perhaps because it was not in good British use). Though still sometimes criticized, it is fully respectable today and both pled (or plead) and pleaded are in good use in the U.S. In legal use (such as “pleaded guilty,” “pled guilty”), both forms are standard, though pleaded is used with greater frequency. In nonlegal use (such as “pleaded for help”), pleaded appears more commonly, though pled is also considered standard.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plead


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#118

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:10 pm

I have an extensive, but nevertheless limited, English usage library (35 64* books). And the only commentator I could find who wrote on the subject -- and criticized "pled" -- was H.L. Mencken. Not great company.

Edit: *Oh, my. I just counted them. And that doesn't include 9 dictionaries and 6 books with famous or useful quotations!



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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#119

Post by Reality Check » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:46 pm

The ABA Journal comes down on the side of "pleaded".

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ed_or_pled


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#120

Post by Maybenaut » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:55 pm

Reality Check wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:46 pm
The ABA Journal comes down on the side of "pleaded".

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ed_or_pled
Looks to me like they merely acknowledge the debate.



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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#121

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:56 pm

Reality Check wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:46 pm
The ABA Journal comes down on the side of "pleaded".

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ed_or_pled
Yes, but which side does Michael T. Flynn come down on?



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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#122

Post by Suranis » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:57 pm

Sorry to interupt this important legal debate, but this is hot off the presses...



I think Alan is in the running for the Orly Taitz coherence of legal legality award.


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#123

Post by kate520 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:21 pm

A theory of leaks and pressure. :snippity: So a witness known to be blabbermouth...
You’re talking about Carter Page, aren’t you? :blink:
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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#124

Post by fierceredpanda » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:46 pm

I was never a fan of Dershowitz, but his "analysis" during the Trump Administration has been embarrassingly awful. Either he's going senile (possible) or is on the Trump family payroll (also possible).


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Re: USA v Michael T. Flynn; USDC for DC; False Statements to FBI; Guilty Plea

#125

Post by Addie » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:20 pm

Law and Crime
Fmr White House Counsel: Trump’s Lawyer ‘Should Be Disbarred’ For Incriminating Flynn Tweet

President Donald Trump‘s lawyer John Dowd should be disbarred if he actually wrote the now-infamous Michael Flynn tweet sent from Trump’s official Twitter account, according to a former White House ethics attorney. ...

Dowd copping to authorship of the controversial tweet would seemingly limit the statement’s impact on any potential obstruction charges leveled against President Trump, however, Painter’s argument is essentially that Dowd’s alleged authorship is farcical.

After sending his initial tweet suggesting that Dowd be disbarred, Painter retweeted former director of the United States Office of Government Ethics, Walter Shaub, who wrote:
I dare you to tell Mueller you logged into POTUS’s Twitter account and wrote “pled” and the rest of that, John Dowd. I dare you.
Shaub is referencing the fact that Trump’s tweet contained the incorrect term “pled” instead of the legal term “pleaded”–an unlikely mistake for a seasoned attorney to make.


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