Hillary Clintons Emails

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Suranis
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Hillary Clintons Emails

#1

Post by Suranis » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:58 pm

Thread for discussion of Hillary Clinton emails and related legal issues.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#2

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:57 am

Suranis wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:58 pm
Thread for discussion of Hillary Clinton emails and related legal issues.
:twisted: do we also too need a new thread on Benghazzziii ? ;)



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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#3

Post by Lani » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:07 am

OK, then how about Colin Powell instead?
Former Secretary of State Colin Powell found himself on the defensive Thursday following the release of a 2009 email exchange with Hillary Clinton, describing his use of a private, dial-up email account to carry out government business.

Powell's antiquated AOL account, which worked over a phone line in his office at the State Department, might have been more vulnerable to attack by hackers than the private email server the Clinton used during her tenure as secretary.

Powell said in a statement he viewed his use of private email to communicate with foreign leaders and senior U.S. officials as private conversations similar to phone calls. He said he was unaware of any requirement that those messages be preserved as government records, potentially subject to public release.
:snippity:
In Powell's case, however, it is known that his private email account was eventually breached.

In 2012 and 2013, a Romanian hacker known as Guccifer targeted Powell's AOL account, as well as the accounts of former President George W. Bush's sister and dozens of others.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#4

Post by Suranis » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:07 am

RTH10260 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:57 am
:twisted: do we also too need a new thread on Benghazzziii ? ;)
If you want one, feel free to make one!


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#5

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:39 am

HRC’s email “scandal” is the biggest nothingburger in the history of American politics, ever. Hands down.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#6

Post by Reality Check » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:52 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:39 am
HRC’s email “scandal” is the biggest nothingburger in the history of American politics, ever. Hands down.
:like: Yes, there is no evidence that HRC was doing anything other than trying to do her job while saddled with antiquated government systems. Her predecessors did the same thing for many of the same reasons.

Director Comey's poor judgment by violating a long standing tradition that the not inject DoJ of not inject itself into a general election and the media over hyping this issue to make it into a capital crime is why we have President Trump.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#7

Post by Whatever4 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:56 am

Boy am I confused. Did I fall asleep in the Tardis again?


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#8

Post by neeneko » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:15 am

RTH10260 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:57 am
:twisted: do we also too need a new thread on Benghazzziii ? ;)
Maybe a 3rd for whitewater?



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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#9

Post by RVInit » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:00 am

And the BS that she was putting classified information at risk is just that....BS. The FBI's extensive PDF documentation on the HRC email investigation makes it very clear - the government's classified email system is a CLOSED SYSTEM. You can't send an email to an address in that system from any address outside that system, and you can't send an email from within that classified system to any address outside that system. Closed system. Not possible to go into a SCIF and type a classified email and then put Clinton's personal email server address as a recipient. Not possible. That would be flagged, not sent, and the person who tried it would be frogmarched out of the building after being fired. And possibly charged with a crime.

Her server, in and of itself, did not put any classified information at risk. Users who are sending classified email are supposed to enter a SCIF and use the classified system. If they decide to send classified information from their normal government email system that is installed on their work computer instead of going into a SCIF and using the classified email system - THEY are the ones breaking the rules, not Clinton, who was the receiver of a couple of emails that contained some classified information, mostly buried way down 100 pages before she was even added to the thread. She was deemed to have been not even engaged in any email discussions about the classified information, having been added to the thread way after the fact and only so that someone could ask her a question that didn't even have anything to do with the classified information contained 100 pages back in the email chain. She wasn't charged with any crime because there is no evidence whatsoever that she intended to commit any crime, and no evidence that she was using a private email server for any reason other than convenience. Bad? Yes! Criminal? No.

Also, any email she ever sent to any government employee, even if that email is not on her server anymore that email will be on the government email system due to the fact that she sent it to a government employee email address. I doubt that she was sending some kind of nefarious anti-USA emails to officials in other countries. And I doubt that she was sending classified information to officials in other countries. Even the Russians, who bugged her room when she was in Russia, had NOTHING to actually give to Trump. They hooked him with promises of information about her, but in the end, even Jr admits they gave Trump nothing about HRC. All they could do was hack the DNC and trick Podesta and provide emails to Wikileaks. And none of those hacked emails were Earth shattering.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#10

Post by Mr Pfister » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:47 am

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:52 am
Director Comey's poor judgment by violating a long standing tradition that the not inject DoJ of not inject itself into a general election and the media over hyping this issue to make it into a capital crime is why we have President Trump.
I'd offer the Reality Check that she would have lost regardless. Piss poor campaign. Piss poor message. Over the top sense of self entitlement.

Just a few of the MANY reasons we have this president.

It's ok, 3 more years ...

And if the D'S can get their Patriotic Poop in order, there's a slight chance we can blunt the trauma for the last 2 years at that. Not holding my breath, but still holding out hope.



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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#11

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:24 am

Oh yeah. Terrible campaign. The one that netted her 3 million more votes, EVEN AFTER being sandbagged by Comey and bombed by Russian propaganda millions of times on social media.

She would have lost regardless? Gimme a break.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#12

Post by Mr Pfister » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:29 am

And yet, she's STILL not President, is she

Piss poor campaign, wrote off entire states that she ended up LOSING

Yes, an absolutely terrible campaign cuz - look who's President.

I don't expect any rabid Clinton supporters to ever accept the truth tho.

ETA: I did my "duty", I voted for her, but we need a "winning candidate" to ACTUALLY win



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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#13

Post by Slartibartfast » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:39 pm

Sorry guys, but you’re using frivolous accusations to cover up real ones. Hillary CHOSE to use a private server (even though she should have been aware that it had been an issue in the past and, according to Suranis, it was an issue that the Obama administration had raised about the past administration). Too also, given the revelation about the original wording being “grossly negligent”, I don’t see much value to the FBI’s statement that she was “excessively careless” — and that, in and of itself, is not good.

But that is a fart in a hurricane compared to Hillary’s actions after it became an issue. She, willfully and with prior forethought, destroyed evidence that was clearly pertinent. This is actually something that I believe (so, in my expert opinion) is a deficiency in our laws. Data deletion should be an extremely serious crime with commensurate punishments. That’s a topic for another debate, but Hillary’s destruction of the only evidence that could prove her innocence, on its own, makes her unfit for the presidency in my opinion. This is not something I am treating lightly or have not given a great deal of thought, nor is it a position that is frivolous or easily refutable, and, by treating it as such, you only serve to deflect legitimate criticism from the Clinton cult of personality. Is that your intent?

It’s not the crime that gets you, it’s the coverup. The coverup got her. Just like it got her husband. Ask yourselves what it will take to convince you to change your minds about Hillary Clinton. I believe that she has far exceeded any rational standard, but maybe one of you can come up with a standard that she passes but which doens’t Let Trump off the hook, because I can’t.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#14

Post by Slim Cognito » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:09 pm

Bad campaign compared to who? During Trump's campaign, he slandered women, veterans, their families, the handicapped and minorities, bragged about his riches, told 3x the lies she did, bragged he could commit sexual assault, and she still won the popular vote. Trump won because too many stupid people voted their Facebook memes.

Plus voter suppression in WI, PA and MI.

Also too, day after day EMAILS, EMAILS, EMAILS! Trump had so many disasters on a weekly basis, the old stories were pushed out of your brain to make room for the new dailies. But voters could remember EMAILS, EMAILS, EMAILS!



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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#15

Post by neeneko » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:10 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:39 pm
It’s not the crime that gets you, it’s the coverup. The coverup got her. Just like it got her husband. Ask yourselves what it will take to convince you to change your minds about Hillary Clinton. I believe that she has far exceeded any rational standard, but maybe one of you can come up with a standard that she passes but which doens’t Let Trump off the hook, because I can’t.
I think it would be more accurate to say the perception of cover up got her, not the 'coverup'.

Yes, the emails were not deleted till after the subpoena. The sorting and deleting policy change were from well before then though. A careless IT staffer did not get around to it till someone brought it up, and did not inform people further up the chain that they had not completed a task assigned to them months ago.

This produced something that looks bad, but only if the timeline is ignored, and still depends on faith that the deleted messages were not personal and were somehow relevant to an investigation that consistently resulted in 'no actionable problems found'. You would think if there really was any damning evidence in those emails, it would have been found in other copies or somehow come out during years and years of that ridiculous 'investigation'. And if one recalls, the 'right before the election bomb that caused a non-trivial polling change' was the FBI looking at yet another cache of emails from another source and discovering no new records.



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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#16

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:54 pm

Mr Pfister wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:29 am
And yet, she's STILL not President, is she

Piss poor campaign, wrote off entire states that she ended up LOSING

Yes, an absolutely terrible campaign cuz - look who's President.

I don't expect any rabid Clinton supporters to ever accept the truth tho.

ETA: I did my "duty", I voted for her, but we need a "winning candidate" to ACTUALLY win
What, another carping, "blame the victim" theory?

She didn't "write off" any States, she emphasized some over others, which at the time seemed safe to do. This has nothing to do with being a "rabid HRC supporter." It's about facts.

If not for Comey and the Russians, she'd have won. Period.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#17

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:00 pm

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:52 am
RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:39 am
HRC’s email “scandal” is the biggest nothingburger in the history of American politics, ever. Hands down.
Yes, there is no evidence that HRC was doing anything other than trying to do her job while saddled with antiquated government systems.
I've heard that excuse plenty of times, but it's not consistent with Clinton's own explanation for what she did.

She used a Blackberry. By 2009, Blackberries were available for government employees who were sufficiently important to need them, and to my knowledge Clinton has never claimed otherwise. What she has said is that she didn't want to have to deal with carrying around (or having her assistant carry around) two separate devices. She wanted to have everything, personal and professional, on a single device.

I know plenty of people in both government and private employment who are, today, carrying around separate work and personal phones. Carrying a second phone, although perhaps mildly inconvenient, doesn't seem to inhibit any of them from doing their job. Her use of the single device and single email address wasn't something she needed to do her job, it's something she wanted as a matter of personal convenience.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#18

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:06 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:54 pm
Mr Pfister wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:29 am
And yet, she's STILL not President, is she

Piss poor campaign, wrote off entire states that she ended up LOSING

Yes, an absolutely terrible campaign cuz - look who's President.

I don't expect any rabid Clinton supporters to ever accept the truth tho.

ETA: I did my "duty", I voted for her, but we need a "winning candidate" to ACTUALLY win
What, another carping, "blame the victim" theory?

She didn't "write off" any States, she emphasized some over others, which at the time seemed safe to do. This has nothing to do with being a "rabid HRC supporter." It's about facts.

If not for Comey and the Russians, she'd have won. Period.
I think Comey and the Russians are why she lost.

I think things like her campaign skills, habit of using phrases like 'Why aren’t I 50 points ahead?' and 'basket of deplorables,' and inability to understand why people who have to deal with bosses might have issues with bosses who exempt themselves from the rules, are why the race was close enough for Comey and the Russians to have a decisive effect.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#19

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:47 pm

Fair enough. I would only add that she also faced the headwind of being the first woman to ever run as a major candidate.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#20

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:01 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:47 pm
Fair enough. I would only add that she also faced the headwind of being the first woman to ever run as a major candidate.
True. Just as Obama faced a headwind as the first person of color to run as a major candidate.

Obama dealt with the unfair additional expectations by living up to them (and well beyond) - and was still treated with unprecedented disrespect by his opponents, and had to deal with his own party, Clinton included, never fully having his back. Clinton dealt with the unfair additional expectations by living exactly as she would have had those expectations not been there. In a sense, there is something admirable about that approach, something maybe even more courageous than the approach that Obama took.

But that can also be problematic, particularly when some of how you live might trouble voters no matter what your gender or complexion are.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#21

Post by Reality Check » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:52 pm

I think it was obvious (at least it was to me) that HRC was not a great candidate in 2008. At the beginning of the primary season I was a supporter of HRC but after watching how Obama handled himself and spoke I switched because I felt he was smarter and had a better chance of beating McCain.

I agree with Mike Dunford that without Comey injecting himself into the campaign at exactly the wrong time Clinton would have won. I hope he goes to his grave regretting what he did. The timing was awful. It was early enough to have an impact and Comey's tepid second exoneration came too late.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#22

Post by RVInit » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:01 pm

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:52 pm
I think it was obvious (at least it was to me) that HRC was not a great candidate in 2008. At the beginning of the primary season I was a supporter of HRC but after watching how Obama handled himself and spoke I switched because I felt he was smarter and had a better chance of beating McCain.

I agree with Mike Dunford that without Comey injecting himself into the campaign at exactly the wrong time Clinton would have won. I hope he goes to his grave regretting what he did. The timing was awful. It was early enough to have an impact and Comey's tepid second exoneration came too late.
I remember seeing a video of Clinton and Huma Abedin in an airplane talking right after Comey's fateful fatal announcement. I could tell they knew that was it.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#23

Post by Reality Check » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:05 pm

Wiener should have lost his wiener over that. I will never forgive that AH. :nope:


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#24

Post by Slartibartfast » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:27 pm

neeneko wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:10 pm
Slartibartfast wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:39 pm
It’s not the crime that gets you, it’s the coverup. The coverup got her. Just like it got her husband. Ask yourselves what it will take to convince you to change your minds about Hillary Clinton. I believe that she has far exceeded any rational standard, but maybe one of you can come up with a standard that she passes but which doens’t Let Trump off the hook, because I can’t.
I think it would be more accurate to say the perception of cover up got her, not the 'coverup'.

Nope. She deleted emails. That’s a coverup. It doesn’t matter whether or not there was anything to cover up, once you’ve tried to cover it up you’ve crossed the line. This isn’t about perception, it’s the agreed upon facts that are in and of themselves damning.

Yes, the emails were not deleted till after the subpoena. The sorting and deleting policy change were from well before then though. A careless IT staffer did not get around to it till someone brought it up, and did not inform people further up the chain that they had not completed a task assigned to them months ago.

Which means that, when the subpoena was ordered (which was after the coverup was ordered) there was still a chance to reverse the decision. Did Hillary even try? Should Hillary be commended for making the decision before a subpoena came? Shouldn’t a politician of her stature have known that a subpoena was likely? How does any of this mitigate the deletion of information relevant to the inquiry?

This produced something that looks bad

Full stop.

but only if the timeline is ignored,

Is that the timeline that shows she made the decision to delete the data, then received a subpoena for the data and, instead of making a good faith effort to recover it — which would have been successful — she waited until it was irretrievable? That sounds much worse to me.

and still depends on faith that the deleted messages were not personal and were somehow relevant to an investigation that consistently resulted in 'no actionable problems found'.

An investigation that, in retrospect, was originally going to say she committed gross negligence? Which doesn’t matter at all. By deleting the messages she destroyed the very evidence that could have proven her innocent. In other words, she doesn’t just ask for the benefit of the doubt, she demands it. Which raises the question of whether or not she deserves it. Which then makes me ask if her behavior has been above the appearance of impropriety. Which is clearly not the case. I find her behavior nigh impossible to defend on its merits.

You would think if there really was any damning evidence in those emails, it would have been found in other copies or somehow come out during years and years of that ridiculous 'investigation'.

It’s not the crime that gets you, it’s the coverup. A frivolous investigation is not a justification for a coverup, it’s a good reason to avoid one. If there wasn’t any damning evidence in those emails then keeping them would have protected her.

And if one recalls, the 'right before the election bomb that caused a non-trivial polling change' was the FBI looking at yet another cache of emails from another source and discovering no new records.

Which wouldn’t have been an issue if she hadn’t deleted the emails — they would have come out long before the election and (most likely) been nothing, but instead she created an issue which came back to bite her in the ass. And the rest of us too. also.
If Hillary’s actions hadn’t stonewalled the investigation and provided the appearance of impropriety, then I do not think she would have been in a position where Comey’s October surprise would have been decisive. Even with that, she still would have probably won if the campaign had focused on Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania (and helping the working class too, also) down the stretch. It was Hillary’s job to hire people to tell her where to put her resources and how to use them effectively and then to listen to them. For whatever reason, she completely screwed that job up. One of a series of self-inflicted wounds and unforced errors that gave us President Trump.


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Re: Hillary Clintons Emails

#25

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:27 pm

Once again I find myself agreeing with both Slarti and MikeDunford.

What Clinton did was bad. It was possibly a crime. It wasn't covering up a crime.

And Hillary Clinton is being punished for it, along with 320,000,000 Americans.



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