Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

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neeneko
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by neeneko » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:26 am

TollandRCR wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:10 am
Recidivism is very high among people who commit sexual abuse, particularly among child sexual abusers. American prisons are not strong on rehabilitation,and I am not sure that anyone knows how to rehabilitate child sexual abusers. Separation from society seems right to me.
Sam the Centipede wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:48 am
But the bitterest part of all is that those who were abused in childhood are much more likely to become abusers in adult life. The same irony applies with non-sexual domestic violence. It's so sad that when victims cannot escape the cycle, and it also indicates why it is important to support victims.
While both of these are common claims,.. both are old and well cherished idea, it is my understanding that neither is actually true. The rates of recidivism for sexual crimes is lower than general crime, and rates for child sexual crimes is lower than that. And the 'abused becomes abusers' has been around so long that it is just taken as a given. The cycle argument has a very narrative appeal, but the stats only really support it when you look at 'how many abusers were abused?' as opposed to 'how many abused become abusers?'.

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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:12 am

Do you have any citations for these statements, neeneko? Is a recidivism rate of 52% for child molesters high or low? (And the rate reflects only those caught and convicted committing additional crimes.)
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Jeffrey
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Jeffrey » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:14 am

Anyone been able to verify what happened at Winston Shrouts sentencing yesterday? Docket shows sentencing was scheduled for yesterday but I haven't heard a peep. Did I get the date wrong or did he skip out?

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TheNewSaint
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by TheNewSaint » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:15 pm

Jeffrey wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:14 am
Anyone been able to verify what happened at Winston Shrouts sentencing yesterday? Docket shows sentencing was scheduled for yesterday but I haven't heard a peep. Did I get the date wrong or did he skip out?
Good question. Yesterday was the date, but i haven't found any news. I'll keep looking.

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Northland10
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Northland10 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:16 pm

Jeffrey wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:14 am
Anyone been able to verify what happened at Winston Shrouts sentencing yesterday? Docket shows sentencing was scheduled for yesterday but I haven't heard a peep. Did I get the date wrong or did he skip out?
On 17 August the sentencing was reset again to 9 January 2018, per an unopposed motion from the defendant. I am on my iPad so I cannot easily grab the short document.
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Jeffrey
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Jeffrey » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:28 pm

Why the hell would it be unopposed. That makes it 8 months between conviction and sentencing. Meanwhile he's still actively promoting tax evasion and his website and dvds. It's like a bad joke.

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mmmirele
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by mmmirele » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:35 pm

Apparently we have not talked about Steven Lorenzo before.

Lorenzo is currently serving 200 years in the federal pen for drugging and sexually torturing men, but the state of Florida wants a bite at him, as it is prosecuting him for the murders of two Tampa men a decade ago. Of course, this is a death penalty case, as the judge told Lorenzo when Lorenzo said he didn't want a public defender. That's because Lorenzo has decided to go the sovcit route, with the usual language, to wit:
"I am a sovereign man," he declared. "I am not a public figure."

:snippity:

"This is a fiction, corporate court," he said. "I am not a corporate person. I am a living, breathing being."

:snippity:

He spoke in a heavy New York accent, repeating his stance that the case against him was "a commercial matter" that the state had "settled."

:snippity:

"I will not plea," he said. "I'm here to settle. I'm not here to plea."
Lorenzo refused to let jail deputies take his mugshot, but that didn't stop the paper from getting a picture in court.

http://www.tbo.com/news/courts/criminal ... rs/2338959

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mmmirele
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by mmmirele » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:42 pm

Jerry Wayne Willis is off to prison in North Carolina after being convicted of meth possession with intent to sell, heroin possession with intent to sell, suboxone possession with intent to sell, and possession of a firearm by a felon. He will be spending 54 to 102 months as a guest of the state, with an additional six to seven months tacked on, plus 36 months probation when he gets out.

Here's the sovereign citizen portion of the case, which started on September 11:
Mr. Willis, a self-declared “sovereign citizen,” refused all counsel and filed a motion Sept. 11 to have the case dismissed for lack of jurisdiction. The motion was based on a bogus court-filing in the Office of the Minnesota Secretary of State, authorities say.

That motion was denied by Superior Court Judge Andrew Heath.

Mr. Willis claimed not to be a person, but some sort of “agricultural product” and therefore not subject to the laws of North Carolina or the United States. He also told Judge Heath that his name was not Jerry Willis, but Willis Jerry.

With his motion denied, a jury was selected and empaneled that day.
Willis disappeared but the trial continued in absentia, as is apparently allowed under NC law. He was found guilty by the jury, and his freedom ended this past Monday (September 25). The police were surveilling a house and stopped a car with three women in it leaving the house. One of the women was Willis. He was brought before the judge and sentenced.

http://www.carolinacoastonline.com/news ... dfe13.html

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Fortinbras
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Fortinbras » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:47 pm

With reference to Steven Lorenzo, a 200-year sentence in general population of a federal prison is probably less comfortable than death row in a Florida state prison, and probably not appreciably longer, altho I admit it's a near thing.

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mmmirele
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by mmmirele » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:08 pm

Did anyone notice that Willis called himself an "agricultural product"????

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Techno Luddite
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Techno Luddite » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:30 pm

mmmirele wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:08 pm
Did anyone notice that Willis called himself an "agricultural product"????
It seems he has aspired to be a vegetable.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by JohnPCapitalist » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:46 pm

mmmirele wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:08 pm
Did anyone notice that Willis called himself an "agricultural product"????
I did see that and wondered about it. I've never seen that particular approach before, either. A search turned up nothing, though it certainly would be amusing to have some window into his thought process.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by LtDansLegs » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:16 am

mmmirele wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:42 pm
Jerry Wayne Willis is off to prison in North Carolina after being convicted of meth possession with intent to sell, heroin possession with intent to sell, suboxone possession with intent to sell, and possession of a firearm by a felon. He will be spending 54 to 102 months as a guest of the state, with an additional six to seven months tacked on, plus 36 months probation when he gets out.

Here's the sovereign citizen portion of the case, which started on September 11:
Mr. Willis, a self-declared “sovereign citizen,” refused all counsel and filed a motion Sept. 11 to have the case dismissed for lack of jurisdiction. The motion was based on a bogus court-filing in the Office of the Minnesota Secretary of State, authorities say.

That motion was denied by Superior Court Judge Andrew Heath.

Mr. Willis claimed not to be a person, but some sort of “agricultural product” and therefore not subject to the laws of North Carolina or the United States. He also told Judge Heath that his name was not Jerry Willis, but Willis Jerry.

With his motion denied, a jury was selected and empaneled that day.
Willis disappeared but the trial continued in absentia, as is apparently allowed under NC law. He was found guilty by the jury, and his freedom ended this past Monday (September 25). The police were surveilling a house and stopped a car with three women in it leaving the house. One of the women was Willis. He was brought before the judge and sentenced.

http://www.carolinacoastonline.com/news ... dfe13.html
Headline adjusted to match story...that is one REALLY bad wig.
Screen-Shot-2017-09-28-at-12.13.32-AM.jpg
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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Notorial Dissent » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:55 am

mmmirele wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:08 pm
Did anyone notice that Willis called himself an "agricultural product"????
Bovine exudent????
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Sam the Centipede » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:40 am

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:55 am
mmmirele wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:08 pm
Did anyone notice that Willis called himself an "agricultural product"????
Bovine exudent????
In sovcit agro-argle-bargle that should probably be "the living man-ure".

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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Notorial Dissent » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:58 am

I like that, much better pun.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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RoadScholar
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by RoadScholar » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 am

Isn't his Straw Man an agricultural product too (also)? :think:
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Jeffrey
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Jeffrey » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:08 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 am
Isn't his Straw Man an agricultural product too (also)? :think:
What an exquisite pun.

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TheNewSaint
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by TheNewSaint » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:39 pm

Mr. Willis claimed not to be a person, but some sort of “agricultural product” and therefore not subject to the laws of North Carolina or the United States.
The judge should have sentenced him to be mulched. :-D

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by RTH10260 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:42 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 am
Isn't his Straw Man an agricultural product too (also)? :think:
Hmmm - may he cross state lines without a state certificate approved health bill, not carrying unwelcome critters to his destination ? :lol:

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RVInit
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by RVInit » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:12 pm

TheNewSaint wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:39 pm
Mr. Willis claimed not to be a person, but some sort of “agricultural product” and therefore not subject to the laws of North Carolina or the United States.
The judge should have sentenced him to be mulched. :-D
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Siegfried Shrink
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Siegfried Shrink » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:33 am

It seems pretty clear that the agricultural product bit was simply the reporter's take on the usual 'straw man' claim.

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Foggy
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Foggy » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:41 am

Doubtful, really. The term 'strawman' is pretty widely used, and a reporter should know that. Even real straw men are not really agricultural products.

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TheNewSaint
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by TheNewSaint » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:31 am

Also, I'm pretty sure states can write laws pertaining to agricultural products.

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pipistrelle
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by pipistrelle » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:37 am

RTH10260 wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:42 pm
RoadScholar wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 am
Isn't his Straw Man an agricultural product too (also)? :think:
Hmmm - may he cross state lines without a state certificate approved health bill, not carrying unwelcome critters to his destination ? :lol:
Yes, per constitutional law expert Gavin Seim.

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