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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:11 pm 
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This is something I haven't seen before. From the UK's Sky News.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... 2415560734

Quote:
"The so-called 'birthers' movement, which questions whether Barack Obama was born in the US and is therefore a legitimate president, has cropped up on the campaign.

A representative in Arizona's state senate has even introduced a 'birth certificate bill' because she says constituents are so worried.

The White House has consistently dismissed the issue. Authorities in Hawaii have provided an electronic record of Obama's birth because the paper copy was destroyed in a fire which wiped out much of the state's archives."


I haven't found any reference to such a fire. Anyone have any ideas??

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Never heard of a fire, but the fates are against us. Our Most Holy Leader even ordered up a Great Earthquake in Chile so as to generate a tsunami that would flood the Hawaiian archives and destroy the long form certificate. Foiled again!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:16 pm 
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kimba wrote:
Never heard of a fire, but the fates are against us. Our Most Holy Leader even ordered up a Great Earthquake in Chile so as to generate a tsunami that would flood the Hawaiian archives and destroy the long form certificate. Foiled again!


Yeah, he certainly is turning out to be a total failure as Messiah, tyrant, commie dictator. #-o

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Gee, I wonder how this survived the fire that destroyed the Hawaii State Archives <snark>:

Quote:
Letter from Lincoln found in state archives

By Burl Burlingame

POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Jun 09, 2009

Even during the Civil War, the greatest calamity to befall the nation, the wheels of bureaucracy ground slowly but surely. It required President Abraham Lincoln to write hundreds of letters and sign thousands of official statements.

Four of these documents have turned up in the Hawaii State Archives -- one of which is a personal letter of condolence to Kamehameha V upon the death of his brother Kamehameha IV. But it is a simple presidential order that has Lincoln scholars excited:

"I hereby authorize and direct the Secretary of State to affix the Seal of the United States to my Proclamation of this date and signed by me and for so doing, this shall be his warrant.

"Abraham Lincoln.

"Washington, 22nd September, 1862."


More at the link

Images of the Lincoln documents found in 2009 in the archives can be viewed here

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:24 pm 
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Sky News, isn't that Murdoch? Hmmph. I had to stop going to Dodger games when he owned them, the place stank so much. I wouldn't trust it.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Don't tell me that's what they're saying =))

kimba wrote:
Never heard of a fire, but the fates are against us. Our Most Holy Leader even ordered up a Great Earthquake in Chile so as to generate a tsunami that would flood the Hawaiian archives and destroy the long form certificate. Foiled again!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:16 pm 
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Adelante wrote:
Don't tell me that's what they're saying =))

kimba wrote:
Never heard of a fire, but the fates are against us. Our Most Holy Leader even ordered up a Great Earthquake in Chile so as to generate a tsunami that would flood the Hawaiian archives and destroy the long form certificate. Foiled again!

Not exactly, but this (from a mostly-Muslim Web site that is not especially different from the Christian ones saying the same thing) is starting:
Quote:
Miguel Flores says:
February 28, 2010 at 5:39 am

it do just mean..that we on the last days

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:46 pm 
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This has the strong smell of misprint written all over it.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:47 pm 
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I saw this morning where Marvin Galloway, one of FR's nuttier Birthers, commented on this by saying the reporter got it wrong, but rebutting the reporter by repeating an explicitly false story:

Quote:
The author of the piece got several things wrong. Number one, there is no proof that Hawaii provided an electronic record; number two, the state's records were not destroyed in a fire, Barry claimed the copy he saw with his mother's papers was destroyed n a minor fire at his home, a fire for whcih authorities/fire dept. never answered any call to.


Marvin is, of course, repeating a blogger's satirical story as if it were true.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:13 pm 
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kbell wrote:
This has the strong smell of misprint written all over it.


Of course. It's a British reporter covering an exclusively American fringe conspiracy theory. It's really unfortunate that the writer made this error (probably misinterpreted from the satirical fire story), but it's not too terribly surprising.

But man, the Birthers are going to have a field day with this. The Freepers already are. Despite the fact, of course, that the error doesn't really help them in any way, except to the extent that they try to claim that this evidences an international journalistic conspiracy.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:11 pm 
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tRSoL's new "news" site has links to several stories that would contradict there having been a fire.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:12 am 
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TollandRCR wrote:
I would frankly hate a god who even thought of doing such a thing.


I've always just assumed that it's not so much that there are more earthquakes or other such disasters, but rather that we are more aware of them because there are more people, covering more of the surface of the Earth, we're better able to detect things like earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and tsunamis even when they're in areas with minimal population and news of such happenings is sent almost instantaneously around the world. Plus, nowadays, we gots pictures, too! So the disasters are more real - we can see the devastation, the people's whose lives have been disrupted, destroyed or ended.

Theologically, I see the Earth - Jord - as a living being, and things like earthquakes, fires, volcanoes and storms are not things that she does to humans, but are just functions of her body whose purpose we may not fully understand. But just like how when we have an infection, our bodies develop a fever as part of our immune response to fight off whatever bug we've got, we know that periodically, large forests like Yellowstone will have large scale fires that clear out the underbrush, renew the soil and allow the forest to continue growing - healthier than it was before. She's not ATTACKING us, we just happen to be living there.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:37 am 
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Well, we might have found where Sky News did their research. Namely "The Spoof"

Barack Obama Now Claims Hawaiian Birth Certificate Destroyed In Pearl Harbor Bombing

Quote:
"December 7th, 1941...the day that would live in infamy....the day that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor....and apparently the day that President Barack Obama's birth certificate was destroyed in a hospital fire.

Obama, who claims that he was born in Honolulu in 1961, has now claimed that a hospital fire that occurred during the 1941 bombing destroyed his birth certificate.

"It was a war," said the man who cannot prove his citizenship (which he once denied). "In the heat and carnage and disorganization of battle, many things are lost, misplaced, and destroyed. Records from ten and twenty and even fifty and a hundred years before were damaged or burnt. This left repercussions on the island that were (and are) still being felt and experienced two generations later."

"If you must blame someone for my not locating my birth certificate, blame Yokomoto and Tojo and Hirohito and the Japanese fleet that bombed Pearl Harbor. It's all their fault."

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:20 pm 
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thorswitch wrote:
TollandRCR wrote:
I would frankly hate a god who even thought of doing such a thing.


I've always just assumed that it's not so much that there are more earthquakes or other such disasters, but rather that we are more aware of them because there are more people, covering more of the surface of the Earth, we're better able to detect things like earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and tsunamis even when they're in areas with minimal population and news of such happenings is sent almost instantaneously around the world. Plus, nowadays, we gots pictures, too! So the disasters are more real - we can see the devastation, the people's whose lives have been disrupted, destroyed or ended.

Theologically, I see the Earth - Jord - as a living being, and things like earthquakes, fires, volcanoes and storms are not things that she does to humans, but are just functions of her body whose purpose we may not fully understand. But just like how when we have an infection, our bodies develop a fever as part of our immune response to fight off whatever bug we've got, we know that periodically, large forests like Yellowstone will have large scale fires that clear out the underbrush, renew the soil and allow the forest to continue growing - healthier than it was before. She's not ATTACKING us, we just happen to be living there.

James Lovelock would come pretty close to agreeing with you, in the "strong form" of the Gaia Hypothesis. In even a somewhat weaker form of the hypothesis, it could be pointed out that a lot of the destruction and death that we see caused by the Earth's various convulsions is attributable to our being where we really ought not to be -- "She's not ATTACKING us, we just happen to be living there." The reinsurance companies have a strong financial and scientific interest in where the human population has chosen to put itself and its wealth, which is disproportionately along the coasts of oceans and freshwater lakes. So hurricanes tend to do more damage than they otherwise would have. It never made sense to build expensive houses on the Outer Banks of North Carolina, even if you put them on stilts: the seaward side of the Outer Banks is eroding, and the bay side is approaching the mainland. It makes no sense to insure those houses. That is why Allstate will no longer write homeowner's insurance policies in Connecticut: they wanted to stop writing policies for coastal communities; the state insisted that their coverage be all or nothing; and they withdrew. Multimillion dollar houses are still being built on the Connecticut shore, often around the shells of much older, much more modest houses. California permitted the building of houses on cliffs that were eroding before construction began. Those houses and cliffs are "secured" by enormous "nails" driven into the cliffs through concrete and rebar.

It makes no sense to live and farm on the very slopes of active volcanoes. It makes no sense to site a nuclear power plant directly over a fault line. And it never made sense to prevent the forest fires that are essential to the regeneration and health of forests (unless you were a logging company). Somebody should have long ago acted upon the fact that suppressed fires result in fires that destroy forests rather than regenerate them. But we had put our houses and our park buildings in those forests; we could not let them naturally burn.

New Orleans is sometimes used as the classic example of where a city should never have been located. That is a false example. The real problem is how the Mississippi has been constrained and its natural flood plain built up with factories and settlements, all the way to the Canadian border and beyond (on its tributaries). It was the Corps of Engineers that caused the series of floods of New Orleans. Due to their projects, New Orleans is now more than 20 miles closer to the Gulf of Mexico than it was when founded, and the city has sunken more than a few feet. (And the Gulf has a huge and growing "dead zone.") The city was originally built on high ground well above the level of the Mississippi. (The famous old elevated tombs are there because of groundwater, not because of floods.)

There is geological evidence that the Earth was much more seismically active in its first one or two billion years than it is today. Hurricanes are a cyclical phenomenon, and it is not at all certain that climate change will lead to more hurricanes or to more destructive hurricanes. There is speculation that climate change might be related to earthquakes, but I suspect (from a lay point of view) that that is reaching for a too-distant straw.

I really do find it impossible to grasp that people would worship a god that they believe would cause the death of more than 200,000 people in Haiti -- or permit that to happen by withholding his powerful hand. Or a god that would bomb the cities of the plain, including Sodom and Gomorrah, or would order the destruction and looting of Jericho.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:27 pm 
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Well, we might have found where Sky News did their research. Namely "The Spoof"


Love that. And sky news is Murdock.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:55 pm 
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Sorry, folks. I see that I have again created a threadjack. The problem with threadjacks, to me, is not so much that they take up space belonging to something else, but that it may be extremely hard to find the wayward thread in something named Hawaii State Archive Fire??.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:40 pm 
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PatGund wrote:
Well, we might have found where Sky News did their research. Namely "The Spoof"

Barack Obama Now Claims Hawaiian Birth Certificate Destroyed In Pearl Harbor Bombing

Quote:
"December 7th, 1941...the day that would live in infamy....the day that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor....and apparently the day that President Barack Obama's birth certificate was destroyed in a hospital fire.

Obama, who claims that he was born in Honolulu in 1961, has now claimed that a hospital fire that occurred during the 1941 bombing destroyed his birth certificate.

"It was a war," said the man who cannot prove his citizenship (which he once denied). "In the heat and carnage and disorganization of battle, many things are lost, misplaced, and destroyed. Records from ten and twenty and even fifty and a hundred years before were damaged or burnt. This left repercussions on the island that were (and are) still being felt and experienced two generations later."

"If you must blame someone for my not locating my birth certificate, blame Yokomoto and Tojo and Hirohito and the Japanese fleet that bombed Pearl Harbor. It's all their fault."


1) If Obama was born before 1941, then he was born before France abrogated the law of return for the Huguenots. Start talking about another birfer variant.

2) the problem with The Spoof is that although they claim to "print" only satire, they sometimes get painfully close to reality. It is like the boy who cried wolf, in reverse. They should not put "The story above is a satire or parody. It is entirely fictitious." under those articles, but rather something like "The story above is a satire or parody. Any resemblance to persons fictional or real who are living, dead or undead is purely intentional'.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:07 pm 
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What's funny is that most people who responded to that story missed or disregarded the "satire" tag.

Loren wrote:
Marvin is, of course, repeating a blogger's satirical story as if it were true.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Bob Weber wrote:
What's funny is that most people who responded to that story missed or disregarded the "satire" tag.


And did you see who was the last person to respond to that story? A whole month later, and totally buying it as legit?

Parker "Beckwith" Shannon.

So naturally, even though he personally bought the story as legit, even though he personally read it on the site that labelled it "satire," he's dragging SkyOne over the coals for making essentially the same mistake he did.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:35 pm 
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A distinguishing feature of crackpots is that they clamp onto anything which seems to support their belief, no matter the source, while disregarding anything which contradicts their belief, no matter the source. That's how an anonymous prankster punked the birfers with the Bomford-template FKBC, and how Lucas Smith managed to attach himself to them. There's plenty of other hoaxes they've fallen for.

As for "Beckwith", he fails to meet even the low standards of Rupert Murdoch orgs like SkyOne.

Loren wrote:
Bob Weber wrote:
What's funny is that most people who responded to that story missed or disregarded the "satire" tag.


And did you see who was the last person to respond to that story? A whole month later, and totally buying it as legit?

Parker "Beckwith" Shannon.

So naturally, even though he personally bought the story as legit, even though he personally read it on the site that labelled it "satire," he's dragging SkyOne over the coals for making essentially the same mistake he did.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:17 pm 
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TollandRCR wrote:
James Lovelock would come pretty close to agreeing with you, in the "strong form" of the Gaia Hypothesis. In even a somewhat weaker form of the hypothesis, it could be pointed out that a lot of the destruction and death that we see caused by the Earth's various convulsions is attributable to our being where we really ought not to be -- "She's not ATTACKING us, we just happen to be living there."


Interesting. I'd heard the term "Gaia Hypothesis" but had never really read about it. I did a quick look at Wikipedia, and there is quite a bit of that in my thinking. Thanks for bringing it up - I'll have to read more about it.

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