OK, after reading here for months, I registered and de-lurked to post this. For the first time in a while I went over to Orly's house-o-malware to see what she was writing about her experience yesterday. People here discussed whether to feel "sorry" for Taitz or not, and the general consensus seems to be that this is all of her own making, so no sympathy at all. However, I think few people would disagree that this woman has some serious mental health issues, and from mikedunford's report it sounds like she is seriously on the edge of a nervous breakdown. Maybe she NEEDS to have a nervious breakdown to get the help she needs.

But the comments at Orly's really bothered me this morning. It's clear that a lot of the "supportive" comments are from Obots, and it just struck me as "let's poke the crazy lady with a stick and see what happens." Does anyone else think that goes over the line? Whether you have sympathy for someone who has psychiatric problems is one thing (or, I suppose more appropriately, whether you have sympathy for what she has done as a result, which is different), but actively encouraging someone to go farther into the madness?

You have a point, and that is the one aspect of all this that does bother me somewhat, Blue.

Orlybots are remarkably good at imitating Obots, who are remarkably good at imitating Orlybots, who... There is plenty of stuff out there on the Web that no Obot could conceive of posting that urges Orly on to greater and more violent actions.

As I have understood it from LM K and other people with expertise in mental illness, what Orly has is a severe personality disorder, narcissism. That does not appear to be treatable in the medical sense of the word. The person who has the greatest capacity to bring Orly back down to earth and out of the courts is Yosef. He would probably become the target of her wrath. However, Fluffy could help him.

The California Bar could also help Orly, although they appear still not to care about her frivolous practice of law throughout the nation. Maybe Hawaii sanctions would get the Bar's attention. It would be interesting if the Hawaii Supreme Court were on its own to impose sanctions for what is clearly a vindictive and legally meaningless lawsuit. She says that if she were disbarred she would file pro se lawsuits, which might happen, but her ability to involve others would or should be severely constrained. She would become another Christopher Strunk and would soon be restricted to filing law suits only with the permission of the courts.

I think I can predict a couple of the members who might not share your concern (or who might recognize the concern, but not "care" about it). But it does concern me when it gets to the 'poking' stage. It's a weird calculus, watching and being watched back -- the experimenter affecting the outcome of their own science -- punking and spoofing on the way to ridicule.

Not many of us really want totally to be on one side of one-way glass; we yearn to at least change minds. We yearn to not just explain the truth, but to prove it. But at the same time we know it's impossible -- that most in the conspiracy mindset are not about to change any ideas, because their convictions about LFBCs and Vattel are not based on logic, reason, and scholarship, but rather on prejudice -- "pre"-"judge".

Orly is both ringleader AND victim of prejudice. It's part of what makes her fascinating. But she also seems to be sliding (fast) into real pro se kook territory, like so many deranged perennial and vexatious litigants out there suing to keep the government from indoctrinating them in Sharia law via their fillings.

She is indeed a very sad case. Depending on how it all ends, there really could be a tragi-comic opera in this. What part each individual plays is up to them -- we believe in truth and freedom and law and the Constitution, which is why the birthers offend us. Do we also believe in cruelty toward the powerless? I don't think so. There's a line, but I think it's a little different for everyone.

Is there already a separate thread for this, essentially moral, debate? I don't remember.

Dr. Blue, consider that most everyone is curious about a car crash or a train wreck. That's what you see when you watch O'rly doing her thing. The bigger the crash, the greater the curiousity.

Welcome Dr Blue

I see your point about poking Orly, and the possibility of that sending her over the edge but in truth I don’t believe she has an edge. I’m sure she does get poked but I believe any poking she gets, (by who ever is doing it, and I don’t post over there) is all reaction to her actions. Even though I understand that without a doubt the woman has serious mental issues, she is also an arrogant vindictive hateful bigot who will lie and manipulate anyone or anything to get what she wants without a second thought. And for the most part I believe she knows exactly what she is doing.

I’ve been watching her since the Cook v Good case (May/June 09?) and I have seen her be appallingly nasty and hateful to all sorts of people. I’ve watched her disrespect and literally trash this country (MY country) in news interviews in Israel, Russia, and any other country around the world where she could persuade someone to let her spew and that offends me. She has even called for the armed overthrow of this country. That woman, mentally unstable or not seethes with hate and contempt and she doesn’t give a rat’s ass about anyone but herself.

So I believe she deserves every bit of what ever she gets, and if she breaks down because of it it’s not the fault of Obots or anyone else poking at her. It’s her own damn fault because she brought it all on herself and if she can’t stand the heat, then she needs to get the hell out of the kitchen.

Sorry to sound like a bitch about this, I don’t mean to belittle your concern. I’m just trying to explain why I don’t share it.

The first I heard about birtherism was in Sep 2008 at the old Gretawire where I used to taunt the RWNJ's. (It was my first 'baning' after they howled to Greta how mean I was. Sheesh, you should have seen some of the things they wrote about me! ) No one liked to punch birthers more than me, especially Mario over at Doc C's. I enjoyed pissing off Mario immensely. Then I came to fogbow and decided it was more fun and more effective to stand back and watch the clever legal minds dismantle each and every one of her pleadings. But I still giggle when we talk about the /s/'s and her various wardrobe malfunctions and I think she deserves everything she gets. She's brought it on herself and she dishonors the legal profession with her antics. Plus I think she's crazy like a fox and suspect the distress GG and Mike saw yesterday was brought on by frustration not signs of a breakdown: a pre-teen temper tantrum when she didn't get her way.

I'm particularly bad about poking the bear with a stick.

I'm probably partially responsible for the changes in commenting at The Post Email - assuming that Sharon ever figured out that Schillenger, Adebesi, and O'Reilly were not former inmates in Monroe County but rather characters on Oz.

At this moment, half the posts on one of the ORYR threads are mine.

I think each of us has to decide what we are comfortable with. I poke at the birthers for my own amusment but there are things I will not do:

1. Use bad language, link to porn, etc.
2. Incite anyone to violence or advocate violence, and
3. Pick at people I truly feel are mentally ill.

Butterdezillion is my top pick for #3. I simply can't mock her, because I feel like there is something deeply deeply wrong with her.

Orly obviously has problems, but - to me - her biggest problem is that she is just a mean bitch. If she had treated anyone during this process with a hint of respect or showed the least decorum, I would feel sympathy for her. She has not and I do not.

It's the little things with her. Why does she have to refer to Japanese internment in front of an Asian-American judge? Why all the references to the Holocaust? She is willing to use the more horrific events in world history as props in her theater of the absurd. So...fuck her.

Other birthers I have no sympathy for: Lucas Smith, Dean Haskins, Leo Donofrio and Rev Manning as con men are the lowest of the low.
Walt Fitzpatrick and any sovereign citizen types (violent criminals deserve what they get).
Lakin and pretty much all the military people.
Others I can't recall.

Birthers I have a smidge of sympathy for: Mostly the women, excluding Orly and the military women. I feel bad for Sharon Rondeau. She seems deeply unhappy. I've had fun with her, but I did it in a creative way that was mostly for entertainment. I feel bad for butterdezillion. I even feel bad for Dr. Kate and her minions. Nellie, of course.

Your mileage may vary.

I feel bad for who ever has to interact daily with Butterbutt.

Thanks all for your comments. I was just momentarily repulsed by what I saw so had to say something. I'm feeling better now....



It's not so much being curious about a car crash, or even making fun of someone who does something really stupid in a car and causes their own misery - like the Darwin Award winner who strapped a rocket to their car. And it is natural to be mad at someone who is the dangerous driver and hurts others (Fuddy certainly doesn't deserve having to deal with this crap, for instance). But what I was seeing at Orly's site was people encouraging her on to crazy and self-destructive actions just so they could be entertained by it - to push the car analogy a little farther (too far?) it's like going to your friend who does stupid things and exhibits poor judgement and saying "wow, it sure would be cool if you strapped a ROCKET to your car!"

Anyway, like I said, I'm feeling better now. Orly is so paranoid about postings on her blog that she thinks almost everyone is an Obot anyway, so it's likely not driving her to do anything she wouldn't do anyway. It's just that some there ("Insight" is particularly egregious) seem to enjoy encouraging bad behavior for their own entertainment.

I'd only agree with this to a very small extent, that being if someone a) encourages Orly to take some despicable action against an innocent third party and b) she's actually likely to do that. My main gripe with Orly is her constant abuse of the legal system and of any innocent people targeted by Orly and her dimwit band of flying monkeys. Directing her at innocent targets is bad.

However, short of actually causing her physical harm, which nobody is doing and I think everyone would agree is too far, I don't care in the least what else occurs to her, up to and including deportation or imprisonment, which would be dream scenarios. I wish her the absolute worst. I consider her an enemy of the country, albeit a non-military threat.

Dr. Blue -- the Obots posting at Taitz's site who suggest she do something destructive to her cases are patriots. So I find your comments to the contrary to be puzzling at best.

When the malicious suggestions are to do things that make it easier for the other side to win, I agree. When they would, if taken, tend to drive up costs for the other side (that is cost us more tax money), then I don't. Thus, urging her to rely on a blatantly forged birth certificate signed by Dudley Do-Right, good. Urging her to file some new legal action, bad.

Since when has Taitz needed any assistance in being destructive to her cases? What I'm talking about are the Obot posts along the lines of "you're our great savior lady liberty! keep filing frivolous shit!" (well... not exactly in those words maybe, but the encouragement to continue is there).

That's not accurate. And it doesn't sound like a college professor who should know what he's recently written. Which was this:



On numerous occasions Taitz has accepted and acted on the disastrous advice of Obots who have posted on her site. Those people are patriots and Taitz is a seditionist for whom I have absolutely no sympathy. I want her to fail in everything in every respect. I find your sympathy towards her to be misplaced.

I think what makes me less sympathetic to Orly is that she's just plain mean. Maybe it's a symptom of her paranoia and narcissism, but she is a bully will do anything to anyone if she thinks it will help her achieve her goals.

It speaks well of you that you're concerned about Obot trolls poking the crazy lady as she continues to spiral out of control.

If only Orly had as much consideration of others.

Well Stern, I don't know how to state it any better than that. I believe it is immoral to purposely push someone down a path to self-destruction and harm, to both herself and others, even if that person is Orly Taitz. I will ridicule her self-induced failures, but the "self-induced" part is what makes it ridicule-worthy. I also believe it is immoral to torture terrorists, even someone as evil as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - the evilness of the target should not be used as an excuse for inhumane actions. But I'll laugh my ass off at terrorists who blow themselves up due to their own incompetence. (Too serious for the Fogbow?)

So I'll just leave it at that - while this started here because of comments I read about the Taitz v Fuddy hearing, it really doesn't have much to do with that case any more. I'll try to post something relevant to make up for the mini-threadjack.

If I had an opportunity to trick a terrorist into blowing himself up instead of innocents, you can be damn sure I'd take it.

Orly obviously isn't in the same moral category. However, if I had an opportunity to make her fail to harm the country with her seditious activities and the results were incidentally hilarious, the misery of a miserable excuse for a human being would merely be the schadenfreude cherry on top of the sundae of a good deed done.

Now that's a phrase worth noting!

Like others, I have zero sympathy for Orly, though the few times I've spoken to her since 2009, on the radio, I've been polite enough. But I can see that she's seriously mentally ill. Maybe she's getting closer to some sort of serious collapse; maybe she's not.

I've been wrong so many times before. We have an old thread from March/April 2009 around here someplace about When will Orly snap? And she never did. The thread died, but she never did snap. That thread had hundreds of posts. I've been following her since Dec. 2008, and every time she ramps up the crazy, it works for her, except for that one time when Charlie Lincoln ramped it up a little too much for Judge Land. For two years and more, I poked at her with sticks. I tried to increase her stress level by every means possible. I hope I made a contribution to the ruckus which led to the fustercluck which developed into the group of lawsuits we fondly know as Liberi v. Taitz. I think I did.

She has shown an awesome strength of mind, and an amazing degree of doggedness, throughout the entire three years. I don't think she's going to give in any time soon. After the Georgia challenge, she's just going to think of something so crazy that none of us can imagine it today.

I think this would be a better place to continue the discussion on the ethics of "poking Orly." I truly believe that Dr. Orly Taitz, Esq is mentally ill and is in dire need of an intervention. She'd likely believe that said intervention would be yet another conspiracy to silence her. I would predict that such an event could be very ugly.

The main problem with the mentally ill is that when your mind does not work properly, it becomes impossible to predict exactly how things affect you. When I had my recent breakdown, it was the simple act of a kind friend asking me how I was doing which started the ball rolling downhill and it was rather quickly downhill after that. I am unsure how I feel about egging Orly on, or what exactly constitutes that. I do know that Orly tends to be suspicious of postings that tell her to accuse the judge of treason and the like. I also know that merely refraining from encouraging Orly to perform a citizen arrest on the President will not necessarily prevent a messy situation. Confronting her about her lies could do it. Insufficient praise of her tireless efforts might do it too. Even not commenting might cause her to feel alone and forgotten, which might have very unpleasant consequences. The thing of it is, a person doesn't even have to say something (or nothing) about her on her blog. She's a narcissist. She reads here. She reads anything that mentions her. Her flying monkeys also read here and elsewhere. I've seen extremely vulgar comments about her on articles that mention her.

I don't know what the ethical thing here actually is. With an ordinary person with a mental illness, I would abhor such games. Orly isn't an ordinary person. She's a dangerous, ruthless individual who uses her privileges both financially and as a member of the California bar to harass many innocent people, be they the President of the United States or the family of a deceased infant. The courts, except for Judge Land (and hopefully Judge Nishimura), seem disinterested in putting a stop to such things, even when she's lied to the courts repeatedly and used illegally obtained "evidence" that isn't even evidence of anything.

Orly isn't practicing law, she's acting out a fantasy that she's the saviour of America against a Marxist tyrant in various courtrooms throughout the land, regardless of whether she has been admitted to practice there or not. A fantasy that has absolutely no hope of coming true. As she has failed time and time again, this more than anything, has fed her persecution complex. I don't recall her ever accusing the attorneys-general as traitors in open court before. I think as the election approaches and there's even more fail, the potential for something really unfortunate happening. I hope I'm wrong.

She's received so much encouragement along the way, though. That helps her get through the day.

She got half a million people in California to vote for her for Secretary of State. She flies to New Hampshire in the dead of winter, and there are 9 state representatives who think she's the greatest thing since indoor heat. Everywhere she goes, people recognize her now. Channel 8 shows up for all her hearings in Hawaii. She's still a star. That holds her together. That's the only thing maybe that holds her together.

Thank you, Hektor. I always learn something from your insights and I come away a better person for it.

Thank you for your insight Hektor and for posting your comments in an appropriate thread.